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Lets out the dogs....................starting with SLI UK Equity unconstrained losses
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banjofred
Posted: 02 February 2012 18:29:52(UTC)
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Its time we compared notes on what action is needed on the dogs of the funds

Standard Life Inv UK Equity Unconstrained Share Class: Ret is a Citywire hot pick and also on the HL Wealth 150

Youre 'aving a larf of course .....

This past star has been getting worse and worse,,, and worse. Even when the market moves sharply up our Ed manages to shave a few more % of my money

I have gradually sold it off so the pain of the massiv eloss looks a bit less over time, and will be ditching the last 3 grands worth as soon as I can

The current Xstrata move up might be the time.... even Ed can lose money on the Xstrata price.

For goodness sake its .......
Ranked 278/283 in UK All Companies over 1 year

Thats the bottom of the heap.

Tomorrow I might rant about one or two other hot picks, but can anyone give me a reason to hold this fund ?

I am not normally bitter and twisted but paying these guys over 1.5% to lose me money like a night at the dogs is making me barking mad.
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dodiv on 02/02/2012(UTC), Peter Ranicar on 03/02/2012(UTC), Cape Town on 03/02/2012(UTC), Guest on 03/02/2012(UTC), I predict a riot on 15/02/2012(UTC), Guest on 15/02/2012(UTC)
dodiv
Posted: 02 February 2012 21:12:16(UTC)
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where and when do we get some explanation for poor performance over the last year from this A-rated fund manager
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banjofred on 04/02/2012(UTC)
James Bailey
Posted: 03 February 2012 12:21:41(UTC)
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Hi

Since when should an investor invest in a high risk, unconstrained fund such as this one, over a period of 1 year or less?

The unconstrained approach means it will react completely differently to the sector and FTSE with the stock make up higher conviction.

The fund will likely go through periods of short term underperformance with this fund suffering from the sell off in August, as expected.

When looking at the long term you can see why you would pay the 1.5% fee for an active and unconstrained approach as 3 year figures are SLI up 168%, the FTSE up 63% and the sector up just 59%. Over the shorter term (since the sell off) performance has also improved with the fund gaining 14% over 1 month relative to 7% sector and 6% All Share.

I think it is important investors know exactly what they are buying and to also understand that no fund manager will outperform month in month out due to the sheer randomness in the markets.

Hope this helps
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Sinic on 03/02/2012(UTC), Guest on 10/02/2012(UTC)
Franco
Posted: 03 February 2012 12:27:19(UTC)
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If you think the SLI UK Equity fund is a dog, have a look at the Manek Growth fund and realise how lucky you are. Running UTs in Rip Off Britain is a licence to print money, nothing else.
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banjofred on 04/02/2012(UTC), I predict a riot on 15/02/2012(UTC)
Bernard Bedford
Posted: 03 February 2012 14:14:31(UTC)
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I tend to agree with James. This is a very volatile fund mainly invested in small and mid caps where less is known about companies and randomness increases risk. It had a big underperformance immediately prior to 2009 according to Bestinvest stats then a big outperformance until last year compared with the FTSE350. Over 3 and 5 years it ranks 1 and 3 in it's class, but depending of course on which date you make the comparison on. Bestinvest calculates that over his career Ed has outperformed the FTSE350 by a monthly average of 0.38% so if you want to take a risk the biggest issue is volatility and when to sell, whereas an absolute return fund like SLGARS would help to remove the guesswork from selling.
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banjofred
Posted: 04 February 2012 05:33:03(UTC)
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James/Bernard,

I see your points - the reason I went into SLI is on past performance.

at 61 I dont have time to wait for Ed to change his nappy. All of the funds decked in August, and the only graph worth looking at is how fast the recover the lost money.

Waiting years to maybe possibily get some of the money back whilst paying 1.5% is crazy.

Some funds got the graph back above the August line, like Inv Perp High income (or did not fall such as Trojan), most are only halfway back these 6 months later, and maybe will recover in the market keeps growing

But you know that this recent growth will result in another correction, so back to square one.

I am moving rapidly into cash, taking some losses. I can then reinvest with cheaper winners rather than expensive losers.

Surely these guys should have some stop losses in pace. When funds drop 20% or 25% its going to be a while before there is any ray of hope.

Its small wonder there is a major move to cheap trackers, which cover all the main players anyway
Looking at the HL Wealth 150 performance of last year, most have lost money or paid returns which barely cover the charge percentages? I am about to check out th eCitywire top funds looking for a star. Whether i will find one reamins to be seen

If you lose 25% of your money, you then have to make 33% to get back where you started. after fees.

Fortunately after a year of ducking and diving and eventually selling off funds, I am back to where I was a year ago, almost exactly. The extra %%% I made came and went, the losses have simply put me back to square one.

I feel sorry for those who did stick with the funds and saw the total falling and falling and falling (that Manek one being a good example NOW THIS MONTH HL tell us it is crap.... bit late mate.).

I am not getting cynical about this game, only more realistic.

This "invest for the long term, you cant judge over ONLY a year" is rhubarb

In the long term you are cold and dead, often sooner than planned.
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banjofred
Posted: 06 February 2012 19:33:26(UTC)
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As a follow on,

The biggest item in this fund is DS Smith - its 4.70% of the fund

DS Smith tanked bigtime today dropping 29.52%

Now question for tomorrow. Do you think.....

a) Ed Leggett reacted like lightning grabbing a stop loss and avoiding a massive loss to the fund???

b) Sat on his ""se and did nothing as its not his money anyway and in any event he gets nearly2% annually for losing money

c) moved his position form 278 out of 285 funds to 285 ??

Surely there has been pently of warning about potential takevoer sor otherwise and time to place a stop loss???
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I predict a riot on 15/02/2012(UTC)
Antony
Posted: 06 February 2012 22:14:24(UTC)
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DS Smith had a rights issue, fellas...hence the price adjustment.

If you are 61, should you be investing in an aggressive, unconstrained mid-cap, UK specific equity fund?! (...this fund does exactly what it says on the tin and SLI are a very respected UK equity team). Hence, it does not employ downside protection such as stop-losses (I think you need to spend more time evaluating your fund selections, in terms of the strategy the manager employs, especially if you think that an unconstrained equity fund should utilise hedging strategies).

If you don't like the performance, sell your units and move on (and stop whingeing - YOU made the decision to invest, not H-L or AN Other person on your behalf)...only yourselves to blame, gents.

By the way, if you are showing losses on your investment in this fund then you didn't invest early enough in this product.
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banjofred on 07/02/2012(UTC), Richard Howe on 07/02/2012(UTC)
TJLamb
Posted: 07 February 2012 08:25:40(UTC)
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It's my best performing fund over 1 week, 1 month and 3 months (not so hot over 12 months though) and it's ranked against lots of other what I think would be called 'top' funds (i.e. run by highly rated managers) in my portfolio.
I did chicken out recently however, and sold most of my holdings, choosing IP High Income as the alternative.
I think the fund will bounce back as spectacularly as it has fallen - eventually.
Unfortunately, I am unable to define eventually!
Regards
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banjofred
Posted: 07 February 2012 09:44:36(UTC)
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Antony
Thanks
I was in early but the fall took away profit and put me well
Down

Overall I am doing ok as now slightly up over a year
But only by being ruthless and getting out of some
At a loss

I am also in Artemis real return fairly square despite
Their fall on bonds

Thinking of adding to it?? Would you

At61

Can't put it in the tab anymore got to find safe havens
Which are very few

Surprised that Ali can't set stop losses


By whining I get responses which help decide

Fred
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Matthew Charles Flinders
Posted: 07 February 2012 10:56:17(UTC)
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I seem to be missing something here...how were you expecting an aggresive equity fund to perform well, over the last year?! We all knew the eurozone was in the ****er and that inevitably effects the UK.

I can only reitterate what the small print states...."Past performance is no guide to the future"

Be more mindful of your investments especially if you cannot afford the risk. Failing that, seek financial advise. As this was your own investment decision you should not really be complaining as essentially this is your mistake for the poor timing!
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banjofred on 07/02/2012(UTC)
banjofred
Posted: 07 February 2012 23:17:33(UTC)
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Bernard,

I like this forum, people dont pull the punches, and remind me that its my fault I lose the money, not eds fault apparenlty, although I pay him 1.5% to make me money.

I think in future funds should only charge when they give you proift, must suggest that to the
Govt., they love shafting the financial trade.

It was ignorance on this and some others - I was attracted by high past performance.

never mind I have sold out of that fund, and some other high promising but not giving funds.

I have, helped by the market, moved from a position of being £6000 down before Xmas to today where I am £382 up !!!! Its miracle.

It was hard to learn that its best to sell at a loss and move to a hopefully better investment, that to sit and dream.

Stlll got a few to sell, but I have enough upside now from Troy Trojan, Inv perp etc to keep me in the black. In fact I welcome the next "correction" as I am sitting on cash.

Nooooo to IFAs thank you, I have had two. I well remember the first one who put me in commercial property in time to lose a hefty sum, that I only made back by ditching him and going big into gold. All they can do is suggest the funds which give them the biggest hidden trail commissions. The govt are sweeping that away, about time

IFAs will disappear soon when people learn that they are paying bigtime to be "advised" Who needs an IFA?? They serve no purpose, ad are absolutely no better at stockpicking.

I take your point on whats an old guy doing messing with volatile funds. can you suggest half a dozen safe ones???

Fred
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I predict a riot on 15/02/2012(UTC)
Matthew Charles Flinders
Posted: 08 February 2012 09:54:43(UTC)
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If you are concerned about the charging structure of funds i would perhaps take a look at some investment trusts. I believe they have performance fees instead of a flat % charge.

In terms of fund picking, my most defensive fund is the M&G Global Dividend fund. I'm betting that the global economic spread will provide great diversification opportunities and the fact it invests in solid companies giving out a nice dividend will cement the fund in a reliable position to produce a nice return over this uncertain economic year we face.

But i am by no means qualified to give financial advice.
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banjofred on 09/02/2012(UTC)
dodiv
Posted: 08 February 2012 13:49:21(UTC)
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Accept many of the points made,but the major item still needs addressing. Fund mangers wax lyrically on Citywire when doing well but rarely comment when performance is poor. Citywire and others should be more active in quizzing fund managers.
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banjofred on 09/02/2012(UTC), I predict a riot on 15/02/2012(UTC)
Antony
Posted: 14 February 2012 23:51:12(UTC)
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Hi Banjo et. al.

I hope you are feeling better about some of the comments I made with regards to your concerns. Here are some more points to ponder:

1. I believe the SLI UK Eq Unconstrained Fund TER is higher than 1.5%...I think it is closer to 1.8-1.85% and even the TER doesn't include all the applicable costs (hence the continued debate over TER as a suitable cross-comparison of fund costs).

2. Do you mean the Artemis Strategic Assets fund rather than the 'real return' fund (not sure they have one?!) - Newton has a decent 'real return' fund but I have just sold mine for a couple of reasons: a) it holds a lot of gold mining stocks which are just not performing right now, b) it holds some index-linked bonds which have performed well with high and rising inflation but I believe inflation is on a downward path so these may not perform as well in the near future.

If it helps, this is how I tackle fund costs vis a vis performance or lack thereof from active managers:

1. I only buy cheap, tracker funds to gain exposure to the developed equity markets/regions (UK, US, Europe (ex-UK), Japan & Asia Pacific (ex-Japan) equities (via the HSBC range of tracker funds on the Fidelity funds platform). My US exposure is actually via the Schroders US QEP Equity Fund which is quasi-actively managed but has a very low active AMC of 0.3% or thereabouts (and I have met and have conviction in the manager of the fund) - check it out as it has, over the past 5 years, outperformed the US equity market from memory.

2. I only pay active fees for my GEM equity exposure (First State GEM Leaders fund). Cheapest tracker is L&G I believe for GEM equities and that is around 0.9-1% if my memory serves me right...the active fund from First State has an AMC of around 1.5% and a TER of around 1.62%. This is worth paying up for as they believe in running the fund along the lines of a more absolute return GEM equity fund than a benchmark aware fund. It is also much more focused on the larger-cap stocks which also reduces volatility compared to their other GEM equity fund which includes more names and has mid and smaller cap names within the portfolio. Fewer names = more conviction and tends to be larger-cap (unless specifically stated otherwise).

3. I also pay active fees for specific sector or non-standard equity funds such as the Barings Global Agricultural fund. This is a sector which can be quite volatile but I believe in the long-run will add value so timing the entry is a key determinant of future absolute performance.

4. I have sold out of my Absolute Return funds as they were not performing. Mr. Littlewood of Artemis Strategic Assets fund may be highly regarded but he is not performing. He may in the future but in the meantime I will park my capital elsewhere. In fact, I have raised a little cash recently in spite of retaining an overweight to equities since the Autumn falls of 2011.

5. My overall aim is for a well diversified portfolio using active and passive funds which does not pay more than 0.75% TER. This can be achieved but it takes some monitoring. I am not overly strict on this but with a blend of passive and specialist active equity & bond funds this can be easily achieved. You just need to create a decent asset allocation spreadsheet and then calculate the weighted TER of the overall portfolio based on the weights in each fund and the TER's of each individual fund in which I am invested. Try it yourselves...it was quite an eye-opening experience for me and creates another level of investment discipline for me to adhere to (without being too restrictive).

6. Bond exposure is via IP corporate bond fund and Investec EM Debt (local ccy) funds. No developed market sovereign debt in my portfolio - at present, the risk is just not worth the return, in my opinion.

Apologies about the whinging point I made ...I just wanted to make sure you took full responsibility for your decisions and analysed them carefully in the cold light of day. It is hard for anyone to admit when they are wrong but paralysis can often be the worst course of action. Sometime it is worth cutting losses and moving on, however, an active decision can result in doing nothing...sounds contradictory but so long as you have worked out the reasons why you have opted to leave matters unchanged then it can be justified.

I will check back in a few days to see if any more questions have arisen from my comments above.
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I predict a riot on 15/02/2012(UTC), banjofred on 16/02/2012(UTC), Kenpen2 on 16/02/2012(UTC), Guest on 21/02/2012(UTC), Guest on 23/02/2012(UTC)
banjofred
Posted: 16 February 2012 06:36:06(UTC)
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Anthony,

Thanks for that. I will have to read it properly tonight.

I have sold out of more funds, but remain stuck in Smith and Williamson gold which is costing me, must get out soon.

Also a number of my funds paying divis late Feb ealry march, so i will sell out after that,
hoping that the big crash will wait a few more weeks.

I just bought some more Inv Perp Income Income and one or tow others, but generally I am above 50% now in CASH, then 17% in the lovely Troy Trojan (high costs but is working well), a chunk of INV perps, and i just got some Schroder Bal Managed Fund of Funds which seems to be performing.

I am still in Artemis Strategic assests yes, and the Newton real return. Both have improved in recent months and a divi is due. I dont understand bonds at all. After all Troy has bonds but i am up 12% Are you saying get out of bonds?? Certainly the spread of bonds and gold is all that kept me in the Newton fund

I like your advisce on trackers etc etc - just one thing, if i have say ftse all share tracker (just bought £4000 on low HL charges and its climbing), wont i be heavily into Banks and finance (which i dont like), and in the hands of a junior clerk managing the fund?

I am right out of the SLI UK Eq unconstrained fees to poor you

Its the remaining commodity funds i need to ditch, over time.

Who knows Gold might spike!!

Hey Anthony I appreciate your advice, and believe me I am acting. Its very painful taking a loss on a fund charging you !.5%++, but as long as i am up overall, why worry


Just bought some RIO Tinto , that was clever its dropped another 1.% since LOL

(23 out of 24 brokers saying buy RIO and divi due). Perhaps it will climb 2 or 3% today. These miners are very volatile

Just watched Money Never Sleeps Wall street 2 - I lurve Gordon Gekko !!!!
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Hmmmmm
Posted: 21 February 2012 15:32:34(UTC)
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Ranking Fund name Total returns over one month

1 Standard Life Inv UK Equity Recovery 13.9%
2 Standard Life Inv UK Equity Unconstrained 9.9%

Hmmmm
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banjofred on 21/02/2012(UTC)
TJLamb
Posted: 21 February 2012 16:53:55(UTC)
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I will never, ever stoop so low as to say 'I told you so' - oops!
Sent tongue in cheek.
TJL
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banjofred on 21/02/2012(UTC)
banjofred
Posted: 21 February 2012 19:24:42(UTC)
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Hmmmmmmm

exactly.... thats why i took the opportunity to sell ALL of my sli uk eq uncon, still at a loss

its all very well it growing 9% in amonth ALL of the funds are on the up and up with the market, even my trackers looking good

but that sli fund was 23% DOWN over last few months

23% - thousands of pounds wasted, and not recovering when others did

i am soooooo happpy to be out

enjoy your 9%

in the same time sli was losing e bg bucks (along with former favourite jpm nat res ad first state global resources - gaining dealy but still down 14%), my troy treojan has made me 12%, ad i have a lot in there, and even inv perp high incomer is up 10% (not in a month i admit)

I think they call it volatility

but no, feel free to tell me so- i keep learning from commets on this forum
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Hmmmmm
Posted: 21 February 2012 19:30:42(UTC)
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Best time to move into a low volatility fund - when the market is high!
Best time to move into a high volatility fund - when the market is low!

Assuming the funds you own have had a good record over many years (and no major manager change): look at the funds with the biggest loss, and move money into them from the funds with the highest gain. As we move from one economic stage to the next the fund winner/losers change....
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banjofred on 21/02/2012(UTC)
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