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Pension Recycling Rule
Jurek
Posted: 27 January 2011 14:58:48(UTC)
#1

Joined: 27/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4

I am somewhat confused about the pension recycling rules.
I am 55 and planning on an early retirement during the course of the next 12 months.
I am considering putting a sizeable amonunt of cash into my SIPP, benefitting from the HMRC uplift, then effectively withdrawing the same amount of cash as part of my 25% tax free cash allowance shortly after 'retiring'.

I have been told that this manoeuvre might attract hefty penalties under the pension recycling rules (even if I don't make any further investments into my SIPP) and even though I will be taking the tax-free tax AFTER having put it in beforehand.

This doesn't seem to make sense to me, but grateful for any clarification. I am intending putting ca. £50k cash into my SIPP.

Thanks.
PensionMan
Posted: 22 February 2011 12:40:15(UTC)
#2

Joined: 05/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 32

Tax free cash recycling rules are there to prevent folk taking tax free cash, then immediately re-investing it in a registered pension scheme to get tax relief.

There are limits on this which can be found at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/m...anual/RPSM04104910.htm.

It doesnt sound like your situation falls foul of these regs but have a look just to make sure.
Mary Hamilton (Citywire)
Posted: 22 February 2011 14:36:16(UTC)
#3

Joined: 05/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 61

I disagree with Pension Man here.

The RPSM which he refers to says: (RPSM04104920)

"The recycling rule applies when all of the following conditions are met:

•the individual receives a pension commencement lump sum,
•because of the lump sum, the amount of contributions paid into a registered pension scheme in respect of the individual is significantly greater than it otherwise would be.
•the additional contributions are made by the individual or by someone else, such as an employer,
•the recycling was pre-planned. .
•the amount of the pension commencement lump sum, taken together with any other such lump sums taken in the previous 12 month period, exceeds 1% of the standard lifetime allowance, and
•the cumulative amount of the additional contributions exceeds 30% of the pension commencement lump sum"

It goes on to say:(RPSM4104930

"Alternatively, when an individual takes these steps:

•decides to use a pension commencement lump sum as the means to significantly increase contributions to a registered pension scheme, and then
•pays the significantly increased contributions or otherwise arranges for them to be paid, and then
•receives the lump sum
pre-planning occurs when the significantly increased contribution is made - this is the “relevant time”."

As I see it this is exactly your position. You do not have sufficient cash to fund the pension contribution and you are planning to take the tax free cash to fund it. HMRC have made it very clear that you cannot get around the rules simply by paying the contribution before you take the tax free cash.

The questions I would need to ask to be sure about this are:

What contributions have you paid into your SIPP (or other pensions)?
How are you planning to fund the £50k contribution?

It may be that the way you have described things is unfavourable to you, but otherwise you will be caught - if anyone spots what you have done or you tell your HMIT about it. I think that applying for higher rate tax relief could make things problematical for you.
PensionMan
Posted: 22 February 2011 14:51:58(UTC)
#4

Joined: 05/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 32

Mr Trenner

Apologies if I have mis-read the original poster but I took it to mean that they would be using existing funds to pay a contribution (not pcls cash) and then taking immediate benefits.

If this is ths case is it still an issue as the above RPSM relates to pcls being used to fund a contribution.

Cheers.
David Trenner - Intelligent Pensions
Posted: 22 February 2011 15:20:06(UTC)
#5

Joined: 27/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 23

Mr PM,

I think it is, based on RPSM4104930, but that was why I asked how he planned to fund his £50k contribution.

This is from RPSM4104980

"Example 2 - Other money available when pension commencement lump sum used to fund increase in contributions
An individual intends to use a pension commencement lump sum of £35,000 that he is able to take from a registered pension scheme to fund a significantly greater contribution of £40,000 to another registered pension scheme in the run-up to the end of the 2006/07 tax year. The individual has more than £40,000 available savings and so could make that contribution using those savings, but to do so would mean using up most of those savings, and so instead takes the £35,000 pension commencement lump sum and uses that. The fact that the individual had other available money that could have funded the significantly greater contribution does not mean the recycling rule is avoided.

The recycling rule would also apply if, instead of funding the contribution directly from the lump sum, the individual takes the money that pays the contribution out of the available savings, and then, uses the £35,000 pension commencement lump sum to replenish those savings.

Despite paying the increased contributions from existing savings, the recycling rule is triggered because the individual always intended the pension commencement lump sum to be an integral aspect of providing the means, albeit in an indirect way, to pay those increased contributions.

In both situations in Example 2, the significantly greater contribution is made “because of” the pension commencement lump sum, and this was planned by the individual from the outset.

But, as RPSM04104925 says, it is not enough to establish that recycling has occurred for the pension commencement lump sum to be paid into the same bank account as that from which the savings were taken to pay the increased contributions. This does not of itself mean that the contributions have been made “because of” the lump sum. HMRC has to show that the individual intended to use the lump sum as the indirect means of making those increased contributions. "
Dennis .
Posted: 22 February 2011 21:13:25(UTC)
#6

Joined: 26/12/2007(UTC)
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On a slightly different tack, can anyone help me with this one.

I understand that in April there will be a major change in the amount of income and tax free allowance that can be taken from a pension fund if you can demonstrate that you have a secure income of over about £20K.

I am 62 and have a final salary pension (private sector) of about £25K in payment now but no other private pension or SIPP. If I start a SIPP now and start putting money into it (I have a part time job so this won't be recycling) what is the limit on tax free money that I can take out in say, five years time (when I will also have my state pension as well).

Any suggestions?
chazza
Posted: 22 February 2011 21:13:55(UTC)
#7

Joined: 13/08/2010(UTC)
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My friend X has recently been made redundant and is considering whether to starrt a SIPP with the £9,000 of redundancy compensation that would otherwise be taxable at his highest marginal rate of tax. He is also considering contributing, from savings accumulated from earnings and investments, the balance of his income that would otherwise be taxable at 40%. In total, this would amount to perhaps £20,000.
As part of the redundancy deal, he was obliged to take early retirement and elected to take the maximum tax-free cash sum, most of which he has invested. His occupational pension is sufficient to cover immediate outgoings.
Since none of the money he is considering investing in a SIPP will derive from the pension commencement lump sum, will he fall foul of the recycling rules?
Assuming he is only able in future years to make small contributions to the SIPP (of about £3,000 p.a.), is it worth starting a SIPP at all? He does not expect to need to draw cash or income from the SIPP within the next 5 years.
Jurek
Posted: 23 February 2011 08:31:06(UTC)
#8

Joined: 27/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 4

Many thanks to all for your comments to my original posting.
Just to clarify, I have money available in savings which I would use to pay into my work-related (money purchase) AVC.
I have not invested any contributions to SIPPs over the last three tax years (as until recently, I was concerned about ever being able to completely withdraw my accumulated 'pot'. I have however been contribtuing 'added years' AVC contributions to my employer scheme.
Due to a technicality of my scheme, I have learned recently that I would be able to withraw 100% of money purchase AVC contributions as the withrawal is calculated as 25% of the total lifetime allowance of the accumulated 'pot' (ie main scheme and AVC). Accordingly, this is why I have been considering making a large investment now, getting the 40% uplift from HMRC, then taking the tax-free cash in 1 or 2 years time when I draw main scheme benefits.
On the one hand, this would appear to be just prudent pension p[lanning, but the complications of the recycling rule have made me question whether I might be caught.
I would not intend to make any further contribtions to any pension aftter having received my tax-free cash lump sum.
Does this help clarify the position?
PhilB
Posted: 23 February 2011 09:58:05(UTC)
#9

Joined: 24/06/2010(UTC)
Posts: 14

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
I don't know the precise HMRC rules, but I do know the old adage .."if it walks like a duck and quacks, then it's ......." In Mr Jurek's case, he certainly appears to be trying to uplift the tax-free element by putting in money just before taking it back out. So it certainly to my mind smacks of so-called "recycling".

Look at it differently - from a risk perspective. Getting investigated by HMRC is generally taken to be a painful and expensive process. Are you so desperate that you need to take that risk in order to fund early retirement, or are you being avaricious?

A low risk option is to take zero tax-free cash out of the SIPP scheme. Then you could put all the £50K ex the AVC's - or as much as you feel comfortable with - into the SIPP without risk of running the recycling gauntlet.
PensionMan
Posted: 23 February 2011 10:08:42(UTC)
#10

Joined: 05/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 32

I still dont see the issue here if Jurek is going to be waiting 1-2 years before drawing benefits. But I bow to those more knowledgeable than me.

Xpat Advisor
Posted: 23 February 2011 10:10:16(UTC)
#11

Joined: 17/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4

Jurek: you should seek professional IFA advice, there are too many assumptions to be made from the limited information that you have given.
If your additional payment is a significant increase on your usual payments (30%+ increase) and is within 12 months of taking your PCLS then it is likely to be deemed recycling...and deemed pre planned.

As David stated it all depends on what your regular contributions are what your lump sum is. What Nationality are you and are you planning on retiring in the UK?

Dennis: The tax free lump sum PCLS will be dependent on your existing scheme and what PCLS was taken and the percentage of your entire pension savings. Proposed changes are that any excess can be withdrawn without limit but it will be taxed at your marginal rate.....when you draw income from the Sipp it will be taxed. Your existing income is taxed so is not classed as recycling this refers to the PCLS..............You also need to get some more in depth advice.

X: needs to take advice he will be limited on the amount that can be invested into the Sipp depending on what his income is now. Even though he is not using the PCLS would it is likely to be deemed that the only reason that he can make the additional lump sum payment is that he had received the PCLS.
David Taylor
Posted: 23 February 2011 12:18:03(UTC)
#12

Joined: 07/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 9

Regardless of whether it's recycling or not (I don't know enough about the rules), surely the OP wouldn't be able to take the whole additional contribution as part of his 25% tax free allowance anyway.

He will still only be able to take 25% of any money in his fund, so he can only take out 25% of the additional contribution.

If he starts with £100k in his fund, he can take £25k as a tax-free lump sum.

If he adds an extra £100k to his fund, making £200k, he can now take out £50k.

He can only take out 25% of what he puts in in total.

Or am I missing something ?
Xpat Advisor
Posted: 23 February 2011 12:42:40(UTC)
#13

Joined: 17/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4

We don't know the size of the fund and it may well be that his tax free lump sum is large.

The clients wording may not be the best of course he can only take 25% total fund.....but it must be quite large.....

Yes we are missing something..... the full details and in my opinion it quacks too...
John Smith
Posted: 23 February 2011 12:56:51(UTC)
#14

Joined: 05/04/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2

With ref. to David Taylor above yes you are missing something. Consider if he has a pot of £300k and then puts in £100k. His pot is then £400k and he can then withdraw 25% which is £100k i,e. the same amount that he has just put in.
PensionMan
Posted: 23 February 2011 13:03:30(UTC)
#15

Joined: 05/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 32

As has been mentioned before Jurek needs to get some proper advice from someone who is armed with the full facts of the case.

Many commentators (myself included) have been giving information without full knowledge of the facts.
sgjhaghsdg
Posted: 23 February 2011 13:13:02(UTC)
#16

Joined: 07/01/2011(UTC)
Posts: 169

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Under the new pension rules (which replace the complicated "anti-forestalling" nonsense we've had to endure for two years) you can only put in £50k pa, but you can make up for "underpayments" in the last 3 years.
Ian
David Trenner - Intelligent Pensions
Posted: 23 February 2011 15:12:56(UTC)
#17

Joined: 27/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 23

"As has been mentioned before Jurek needs to get some proper advice from someone who is armed with the full facts of the case."

I think that this is generally the case wityh many posters on here. I try to give generic advice and hopefully I convey the message that pensions is so complicated that everyone needs to pay for advice - which it just so happens I am able to sell them!

David
Xpat Advisor
Posted: 23 February 2011 15:41:04(UTC)
#18

Joined: 17/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4

Clear as mud Jurek. So you have an occupational scheme and a Sipp and are contributing to AVC's... This is now like a case study from one of my Exams....You really do need to speak to someone and soon as the annual limit is changing. It would be impossible to give a proper evaluation and advice without the full details. There are a multitude of areas that you need to get advice on not just the recycling element. If you are UK based go to a qualified UK based IFA and get some advice and take your cheque book.....This forum is not really the best place to get advice based on snippets of information. Your situation seems quite complex and costly if you get things wrong...

Paul
Joe Soap
Posted: 23 February 2011 15:53:02(UTC)
#19

Joined: 24/01/2010(UTC)
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May I take the thread off topic a little and ask that if the contribution to a SIPP is made by a Ltd Company on behalf of one of the directors, then does this affect the "recycling rules" situation at all? Thanks.
Xpat Advisor
Posted: 23 February 2011 16:06:06(UTC)
#20

Joined: 17/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 4

NO.
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