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King Lodos
Posted: 24 January 2018 14:39:19(UTC)
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jvl;55870 wrote:
Where do you get this from? You must live in a different world to me.

It's not my experience that people hate Google at all. I think they have a mostly positive image. Gmail's free, easy to use, lots of space. Google Maps - free, used by many. Search works, used by most of the world. YouTube - used for everything now. Android's good to me, Calendar works, it all ties in and just works. I use some of its APIs and programming platforms. Documentation on speech recognition APIs could be better but I don't think the public see this!

A few people hate Uber or Microsoft. I don't see the same for Google.

There have been so many adblocker apps, starting from before Google I think...

Flash was rubbish, always the cause of browser crashes. Hated it.


First exhibit: Youtube.

Every popular Youtuber (Pewdiepie, H3H3, etc) will have done an anti-Google/Youtube video in the past 2 weeks .. Since the Google takeover, Youtube's become increasingly Draconian – copyright claims, demonetisation, banning accounts, becoming very politicised, social engineering, cutting off income streams for smaller creators.

So tens of millions of kids are hearing anti-Google rhetoric daily; and a recent trend is that Youtube's biggest asset (its content creators) are avoiding Google's ad platform, and instead advertising directly in video, or supporting themselves on Patreon .. This should be a worrying trend – Google are serving an increasing amount content which they can't monetise, because they've made it very difficult for content creators to trust them.


Second: Google Plus.

It's not whether you use something; it's whether people are loyal to it against better/cheaper competition .. And when Google launched their own social network, people hated it .. It become an overnight joke that only Google engineers used it .. If Apple had done the same, even its unpopularity would've fuelled a hip elitist status .. Google's image just makes them look out of touch .. People want to hate them.


Third: Trump/Brexit supporters.

Google have taken a stand against conservative voices .. From the firing of James Damore, the silent alarm that was triggered when a conservative blogger (Craig Yarvin) entered the Google building, the demonetisation of conservative opinions, Google are seen as partisan and a threat to democracy .. Alienating half the Western world immediately isn't good if you're trying to build brand loyalty to rival Apple or Coke.
Jim S
Posted: 24 January 2018 15:02:55(UTC)
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Agree with 90% of what you post KL, but not this one

Google's brand reputation is in much better shape than you seem to think, whether they have upset you or some Tump supporters notwithstanding.
https://www.reputationin....com/global-reptrak-100

OK, I admit to using google search for that site (!) but I suspect many other companies who track global brands will have it in the top 10

Also Google's future potential business in AI, automation, driverless cars etc etc is massive if they get things right, whether or not they compete effectively with Facebook in social media.
jvl
Posted: 24 January 2018 15:43:22(UTC)
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I don't think any of what KL posted registers with the general public. Pewdiepie, H3H3?

My kids watch YouTube, my wife watches. I watch YouTube. Just used it to fix a vacuum cleaner. Just watched some Norm MacDonald clips on it and I'm just using it now to learn some programming thing. Pewdiepie doesn't mean a thing to 99% of the population.

Google Plus? Again, who gives a monkey's? I don't use it, though I use a lot of their other stuff. No one uses it. So what? Google don't have everything. I don't hate them for Google Plus.

I think you'll have noticed that I'm one of the strongest Brexit supporters and pro libertarian/right wing posters here - perhaps even the most - but I haven't noticed a Google stand that bothers me. I don't see the politics in what I use, just the usefulness of the tech. If I search for a vaguely right-wing website like 'order-order' using Google search, does it blank it out? Nope. Also I guess it'll get more right-wing as the EU keep trying to fine and restrict it.
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dlp6666 on 25/01/2018(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 24 January 2018 17:14:54(UTC)
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This is just an area where I know businesses better than any analyst.

Pewdiepie's got 60 million subscribers .. Youtube's largest star .. His global audience rivals the BBC's, but is almost entirely under 24 .. One of Time's most influential people .. His battles with Youtube are the tip of an iceberg.

Casey Neistat .. Probably Youtube's top quality asset .. Larger audience than ITV or Fox .. Even he's speaking out regularly against them.

That's before you even get into the main victims .. Youtube have just cut monetisation for all their small content creators .. They prioritise a handful of big advertisers, and regularly throw creators under the bus.


Content creators are Google's product .. They're already leaving Google's ad network (for Paypal, Patreon, Bitcoin) – the moment they're able to leave the distribution network (for Baidu, Twitch, etc) the audience goes with them .. No question.

I use Google all the time .. Google Sheets, Tensorflow (Deepmind's AI system that learnt Go), I know Youtube better than 99% of people over 20, all the Youtubers I'm citing use Youtube all the time .. But that doesn't mean they've got what Apple or Coke have got .. They haven't .. There's no simple metric you can use to measure brand toxicity, but Google, Facebook and Twitter are toxic brands people will leave en masse at the first opportunity – and it's already happening with the younger generation

jvl
Posted: 24 January 2018 18:25:16(UTC)
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I don't believe this hangs together. Jim S's link shows that Google's brand reputation is still good, as I'd believe without even looking at it. This whole theory just reminds me a bit of when you insisted that Objective C was the world's most popular programming language. You were way out there. Perhaps tech is your Achilles heel?

My instincts tell me that loyalty to Pewdiepie is limited and the fallout is tiny. Who can name any of Time's most influential people over the past 10 years? Youth will ditch him like they'll ditch Corbyn when they get their first house, good job and see the tax bill. Does an Asian or Indian kid, future big customer, even ever care about Google's ad model? They probably admire it.

There are millions of content creators. Who knows them or cares as long as more content comes along? I didn't know the content creator of the stuff I watched today. I searched, I found. I have no loyalty to them next time. Most people couldn't name the writer of their favourite movie. And the writer of that doesn't necessarily ever have another hit.

Apple? Most people would cite them and Amazon over Google as being tax dodgers or exploitative of the third world. Google's kind of invisible that way. Facebook and Twitter are more in the limelight for social media criticism. People also recognise that Apple are overpriced and accuse them of dodgy practices, such as restricting people to their bubble (buy something on ITunes and watch it where else?) and the recent battery fiasco.

Younger generation? My kids are both under 5. They don't care. Plenty of older ones that don't too.

Lastly, you say the kids are reacting against Google's ad model, etc, but on the other end Trump and Brexit people are reacting against them because of their anti-conservative bias in hiring. So presumably Google are full of left-wing/liberal young people? Doesn't make sense. I don't buy it. Google's like National Grid or Unilever. People don't hate the brand.
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Keith Cobby on 24/01/2018(UTC)
colin overton
Posted: 24 January 2018 18:26:15(UTC)
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I have tried to avoid Google for a while now. Intrusive, always wanting you to sign of to some intermediate Google program before you can use the program you wanted. I have a Google tablet but would not have another - beware most are not labelled as Google, but you know who's in charge when you see the hateful logo before it boots up.
I only recently switched to an android phone and I'm quite frankly shocked at the control Google have over this platform and how it doesn't speak to other systems, unless you sign into Google programs you don't want to use. I can now see one of the reasons Apple is so popular, you don't have to use Google. I'm very disappointed that Microsoft has given up on portable devices, what's that about?
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King Lodos on 24/01/2018(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 24 January 2018 18:45:34(UTC)
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jvl;55886 wrote:
I don't believe this hangs together. Jim S's link shows that Google's brand reputation is still good, as I'd believe without even looking at it. This whole theory just reminds me a bit of when you insisted that Objective C was the world's most popular programming language. You were way out there. Perhaps tech is your Achilles heel?

My instincts tell me that loyalty to Pewdiepie is limited and the fallout is tiny. Who can name any of Time's most influential people over the past 10 years? Youth will ditch him like they'll ditch Corbyn when they get their first house, good job and see the tax bill. Does an Asian or Indian kid, future big customer, even ever care about Google's ad model? They probably admire it.

There are millions of content creators. Who knows them or cares as long as more content comes along? I didn't know the content creator of the stuff I watched today. I searched, I found. I have no loyalty to them next time. Most people couldn't name the writer of their favourite movie. And the writer of that doesn't necessarily ever have another hit.

Apple? Most people would cite them and Amazon over Google as being tax dodgers or exploitative of the third world. Google's kind of invisible that way. Facebook and Twitter are more in the limelight for social media criticism. People also recognise that Apple are overpriced and accuse them of dodgy practices, such as restricting people to their bubble (buy something on ITunes and watch it where else?) and the recent battery fiasco.

Younger generation? My kids are both under 5. They don't care. Plenty of older ones that don't too.

Lastly, you say the kids are reacting against Google's ad model, etc, but on the other end Trump and Brexit people are reacting against them because of their anti-conservative bias in hiring. So presumably Google are full of left-wing/liberal young people? Doesn't make sense. I don't buy it. Google's like National Grid or Unilever. People don't hate the brand.


I don't know what that chart of trusted brands is measuring – but that's not where I'd go to get information that's going to beat the market.

You might think Apple's brand is damaged – but the world's most successful brand-conscious investor is buying more Apple stock these days than anything.

There's no contradiction with Google's left-wing hiring either .. Generation Z are the most conservative generation since the 1940s .. They're a reaction against Millennials, who are seen as authoritarian cry-babies .. Videos of millennials screaming at the sky and blocking speakers from college campuses are among the most popular things on Youtube.


I'm not surprised the under-5s don't care, but they'll very soon be reaching an age where brands (especially food, technology and trainers) become extremely important .. And it's not apathy you're looking for: you're looking for brands that people want to define themselves with.

I'm not predicting Google's downfall – if it were up to me, I'd have already broken them up over competition laws .. But I've rarely seen an organisation as out of control or out of touch as Google .. They've got a few cash cows, but the internal situation is chaos – and I'm hoping James Damore's lawsuit against Google is the first of many .. They remind even libertarians like me why we need governments and public accountability

Tug Boat
Posted: 24 January 2018 18:54:46(UTC)
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Pewdipie joined my CoC clan a few years ago. I got to know him, okay chap, Swedish kid moved to UK was living in the north, Sheffield I think.

Had the Google conversation with a few friends some time ago. None of them see Google as a brand, we all saw it as a search engine.

One thing which sticks in my mind regarding Google, a few years ago I was working on driverless car control and I was searching for machine learning, predicate calculus and other related stuff. After about an hour or so it redirected me to a Google job web site... clever buggers!
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King Lodos on 24/01/2018(UTC), dlp6666 on 25/01/2018(UTC)
Mr Helpful
Posted: 24 January 2018 19:07:30(UTC)
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Gather the Welsh NHS having computer problems today.
Could this be another Microsoft Windows issue?
Windows 10 is causing serious difficulties for some users with inter- alia the frequency and unwieldy size of the updates. Have noticed an increasing number of problems reported by Windows users and a consequent movement towards the Chrome Book for hassle-free ease of use.
Well done Google. As a Luddite get's my vote!!!
(Others adopting Linux).
How do others see this crucial area?
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Sara G on 24/01/2018(UTC), Guest on 28/01/2018(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 24 January 2018 19:13:26(UTC)
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Tug Boat;55890 wrote:
Pewdipie joined my CoC clan a few years ago. I got to know him, okay chap, Swedish kid moved to UK was living in the north, Sheffield I think.

Had the Google conversation with a few friends some time ago. None of them see Google as a brand, we all saw it as a search engine.

One thing which sticks in my mind regarding Google, a few years ago I was working on driverless car control and I was searching for machine learning, predicate calculus and other related stuff. After about an hour or so it redirected me to a Google job web site... clever buggers!


I think he lives in an Edwardian mansion in Brighton .. I'm meaning to try Clash of Clans.

The search engine is Google's main tentacle .. And they've been fined for using it to push their own Shopping, and give their own sites priority – and as we're hearing with politics, they may be using it to push left-wing agendas in news.

A big threat to that, I think, is that a huge amount of web activity now takes place within environments, like Facebook .. In China, almost everything's done within WeChat (a Tencent app) .. Plenty of younger generation Internet users are spending all their time interacting with the web through apps and environments that don't involve using Google search .. Then Google just becomes a collection of apps – and I don't think they compete well with Apple or Microsoft
King Lodos
Posted: 24 January 2018 19:24:03(UTC)
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Mr Helpful;55891 wrote:
Gather the Welsh NHS having computer problems today.
Could this be another Microsoft Windows issue?
Windows 10 is causing serious difficulties for some users with inter- alia the frequency and unwieldy size of the updates. Have noticed an increasing number of problems reported by Windows users and a consequent movement towards the Chrome Book for hassle-free ease of use.
Well done Google. As a Luddite get's my vote!!!
(Others adopting Linux).
How do others see this crucial area?


People have put up with Windows for a long time .. It's a problem of having to work across infinite configurations of nonstandard hardware, and some very bad design decisions in the past.

But Linux doesn't have the support or compatibility a company needs, and OSX requires Apple hardware (which suits design agencies and people like me, but not firms that need more flexible architecture, or gamers and game designers – or Asians, it seems).

I think Microsoft's current CEO, Satya Nadella, is infinitely better than Steve Ballmer was – and comes across far more competent and measured than Google's CEO, Sundar Pichai .. He's probably my favourite CEO in tech at the moment .. And where Microsoft's interesting at the moment is in their cloud business, which offers potentially much better business integration, and a range of platform-driven AI services that could power thousands of apps in a future dominated by AI and cloud computing
Keith Cobby
Posted: 24 January 2018 19:32:13(UTC)
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Interesting discussion but I think I'll hang on to SMT and the other BG trusts.
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Sara G on 24/01/2018(UTC), Mickey on 25/01/2018(UTC), dlp6666 on 25/01/2018(UTC), c brown on 25/01/2018(UTC)
Jay Mi
Posted: 24 January 2018 21:32:56(UTC)
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King Lodos;55892 wrote:
Tug Boat;55890 wrote:
Pewdipie joined my CoC clan a few years ago. I got to know him, okay chap, Swedish kid moved to UK was living in the north, Sheffield I think.

Had the Google conversation with a few friends some time ago. None of them see Google as a brand, we all saw it as a search engine.


I think he lives in an Edwardian mansion in Brighton .. I'm meaning to try Clash of Clans.


Might not see Google as a brand - maybe that benefits google, in that people might not know it's there, but they're still using it. You use their tech whether you like it or not. I complexly forgot google own Youtube, until I read this thread.

I really don't see the popularity in PewDiPie - A fully grown adult, who acts like a child.

I get so much stick at work for playing Clash of Clans - i've been on it for 3+ years. Addictive little game.
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jvl on 25/01/2018(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 24 January 2018 21:45:00(UTC)
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There's no question of Google's reach .. In some areas (like advertising) I think it's in breach of competition laws.

But again, reach isn't that quality that separates the perpetually profitable from the perpetually profit-destroying.

I think Pewdiepie is part of the reason we've got a younger generation who value concepts like truth and reason, and are very skeptical of the media, and aren't anywhere near as irrational and easily politicised as the generation above them .. He has all the qualities of a good children's entertainer, but also talks to them on an adult level about things like identity politics and the way politicians misuse statistics in things like the gender pay gap – things I don't think my generation started thinking about until their 30s, if at all
Mickey
Posted: 25 January 2018 09:35:58(UTC)
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King Lodos;55883 wrote:
This is just an area where I know businesses better than any analyst.

I know Youtube better than 99% of people over 20,

What?
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jvl on 25/01/2018(UTC)
jvl
Posted: 25 January 2018 09:50:43(UTC)
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colin overton;55887 wrote:
...I have tried to avoid Google for a while now. Intrusive, always wanting you to sign of to some intermediate Google program before you can use the program you wanted. I have a Google tablet but would not have another - beware most are not labelled as Google, but you know who's in charge when you see the hateful logo before it boots up.
I only recently switched to an android phone and I'm quite frankly shocked at the control Google have over this platform and how it doesn't speak to other systems, unless you sign into Google programs you don't want to use. I can now see one of the reasons Apple is so popular, you don't have to use Google.


Apple's far more protectionist than Google, far more control over their platform (as you might guess from the fact that Apple don't let other manufacturers use their OS).

At home we have the option to buy a movie to watch online on Amazon Prime, Google Play or ITunes. What do I decide? Google Play, because I can watch it on both an Ipad and my Android phone.

Recently Amazon tried to stop selling Chromecasts, didn't they? It happened that way around rather than Google blocking something of Amazon's.
Keith Cobby
Posted: 25 January 2018 10:06:19(UTC)
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Agree about Apple, we don't have any of their products. It's Android for us.
jvl
Posted: 25 January 2018 10:06:26(UTC)
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King Lodos;55892 wrote:
.. as we're hearing with politics, they may be using it to push left-wing agendas in news...


So they're a huge corporation that is indulging in all sorts of nasty/monopolist practises and whose biggest shareholders are earning billions of dollars but they want to push communism out to the world?

Quote:
Google just becomes a collection of apps – and I don't think they compete well with Apple or Microsoft


You seem to have an Apple fetish, overrating them. Over the past few years my wife's been wanting to change phones, for the first time, to Android ones. Whenever I use her Iphone or Ipad I'm struck by how annoying things are. I like Microsoft a lot more but recently I tried to use Microsoft's free version of Word online and it seemed to be a little worse than Google's equivalent. Not much difference though.

Perhaps you can't see the wood for the trees here. Many years ago when I worked in an office I remember some kerfuffle on the chocolate run with a couple of people saying they didn't want anything from Nestle.

Why? I asked.
Don't you know? they thundered.
I didn't.
Apparently Nestle had been pushing its baby milk powder in Africa a bit hard. What scandal, etc.

These people were Guardian readers. The world they knew was obsessed with it, scandalised. Very few people outside that clique knew or, if they did, cared. Nestle is still the huge company we know today.
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Keith Cobby on 25/01/2018(UTC)
Alan Selwood
Posted: 25 January 2018 11:24:29(UTC)
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Whenever I see that a company has been bought up by Nestlé (and the same applies with some of the other big, global food conglomerates), I feel a sense of foreboding that what I have previously liked to eat will in future plummet down the quality rankings to the point where I no longer want to consume it.

Sad.

To my way of thinking, there are many large successful companies that prosper because they use brand strength and marketing to supply the consumer with poor quality products that frequently have higher levels of fat and/or sugar in them in order to reduce the price, always at the expense of nutrition, depth and complexity of taste and real value for money, just to boost profits for shareholders and bonuses for the bosses.

Beautifully satirised, I think, by Terry Pratchett with his pie-seller in the market of Ankh Morpork.
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Jim S on 25/01/2018(UTC), c brown on 25/01/2018(UTC), Keith Hilton on 25/01/2018(UTC)
Jim S
Posted: 25 January 2018 12:09:03(UTC)
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Alan Selwood;55914 wrote:
Whenever I see that a company has been bought up by Nestlé (and the same applies with some of the other big, global food conglomerates), I feel a sense of foreboding that what I have previously liked to eat will in future plummet down the quality rankings to the point where I no longer want to consume it.

Sad.

To my way of thinking, there are many large successful companies that prosper because they use brand strength and marketing to supply the consumer with poor quality products that frequently have higher levels of fat and/or sugar in them in order to reduce the price, always at the expense of nutrition, depth and complexity of taste and real value for money, just to boost profits for shareholders and bonuses for the bosses.

Beautifully satirised, I think, by Terry Pratchett with his pie-seller in the market of Ankh Morpork.


Very true Alan. Kraft takeover of Cadbury was another sad one
- A week after promising to keep Cadbury's Somerdale factory open, Kraft backtracked and said it would close the plant.
- The main reason Cadbury was apparently worth more as part of Kraft than independent seems to have been that Kraft was able to use creative accounting to slash the tax rate paid by Cadbury's operations in the UK after it had been taken over.

Then there's the Thames Water takeover by Macquarie which Macquarie ended up using Thames water's own money to pay for for (after assurances that wouldn't happen) and loaded the company down with debt before selling on at a nice profit.
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Tim D on 25/01/2018(UTC)
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