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Noob needs ISA and funds advice - 20k to invest asap
Mr J
Posted: 17 January 2018 20:22:02(UTC)
#42

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When the market crashes, fear takes over and there is a flight from risk. Any shareholding which can be seen as risky gets sold more than shares where the company is seen as likely to endure and survive. This means that shares in a company like Coca Cola or an essential utility company like a domestic gas provider or a supermarket tend to fall less - people always drink coke, always have to buy gas to keep warm, always need to eat. Smaller and more speculative companies selling discretionary goods or on high valuations that already assume continued rapid growth get hammered. People don’t have to buy luxury handbags, or champagne, or invest in the latest gizmos or technology when things get tough.

Of course each crash can have its own factors, in 2008/09 banks shares were destroyed because it was a credit crisis whereas under other circumstances banks might have been seen as likely to endure and survive.

This is what commentators also call ‘risk on’ and ‘risk off’. When investors feel confident they will buy risky smaller companies on high valuations - ‘risk on’. When they get fearful they will sell these and prefer stodgy defensive low growth dependables - ‘risk off’.

Nobody knows what will happen next. However having seen smaller companies get absolutely hammered during crashes, and rise faster and further during recoveries one strategy for the brave is to buy smaller companies funds at the nadir. In 2009 I had seemingly seen my investments savaged but I managed to resist that overwhelming urge to sell, and with the little cash I had I bought a smaller companies fund - 9 years later it has risen 5 times over (on paper).

With all this there are no guarantees, nobody knows what will happen next, and you can’t just expect to time the market. I have probably missed many opportunities by shying away from companies on high valuations. I didn’t buy google when it floated because the valuation looked crazy - how wrong has that turned out to be. Nobody gets it right - you have to manage the risk - diversify and hope to benefit from that long long term market and economic trend. Best to hold plenty in collective investment funds, best to reduce risk somewhat as you get older and have less time and earnings opportunity to recover from market crashes.
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Theo Shackleton
Posted: 17 January 2018 21:30:17(UTC)
#43

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Great post, thanks Mr J. It sure is a fascinating thing to learn about. In many ways it seems like the ultimate way to experience our changing civilization, and participate in it.
Theo Shackleton
Posted: 21 January 2018 14:01:46(UTC)
#44

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Here's a great video I just enjoyed watching that is relevant to some of the things we've discussed on this thread. You might have seen it already. Covers portfolio diversification (depth and breadth); selecting asset classes that are poorly correlated; the dangers of comparing performance of portfolio to particular elements of it that are doing well; annual reallocation (apparently reallocating on a monthly basis causes a worse result than doing it less frequently - which I find odd); and he concludes with a 7/12 model.

https://youtu.be/8rTBEZSL7-4

He also seems to conclude that 2008 was something of a freak historically (over forty year period anyway), which is reassuring.

Just wondering what your thoughts are in general, but also:

- how many of those 12 elements would be covered by the vanguard 80 fund?
- how could his model be most accurately replicated using funds (preferably 'passive' ones) that you know of?
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Guest on 23/01/2018(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 21 January 2018 15:13:07(UTC)
#45

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I fed the 7 12 portfolio into Portfolio Visualizer – replaced TIPS and Commodities just to extend the test range:

7/12 portfolio

It's not a bad principle, to diversify broadly .. Dealing costs could be an issue (rebalancing that many allocations with a 5-figure sum) unless you stick to free unit trust dealing in Hargreaves Lansdown.

Still that portfolio is a little more erratic than I'd like – there was a period from 2011 to 2016 over which you'd lose money .. I think with everyone else doing so well over that period, that kind of performance could be hard to tolerate.

I don't find any value rebalancing between things like large caps and mid caps, or US and Emerging stocks .. Rebalancing is primarily a way of controlling risk exposure, and risks are fairly similar across stocks. (also remember when you hold a stock like Apple, it's already globally diversified, and has exposure to large and small businesses within it)

To really benefit from rebalancing, dividing a portfolio into 3 or 4 equal, uncorrelated segments tends to work best .. There's Meb Faber's Trinity Portfolio, or the Harry Browne portfolio, as examples .. The endowment portfolios tend to go 25% each: private equity, stocks, real assets, absolute return .. That tends to be quite robust .. Rebalancing between 12 segments doesn't seem to improve things .. I think complicated portfolios are a result of academia trying to be precise (in something inherently chaotic) and IFAs and fund managers trying to justify their fees .. At the moment I'd be leaning towards just telling people to invest regularly in Fundsmith and keep some cash on the sidelines
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JohnW
Posted: 21 January 2018 16:06:40(UTC)
#47

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Let me say now, I don't like, and will never again put money into Model Portfolios The investor and the model portfolio manager have different priorities. Let me explain. When I stopped smoking I decided to put my "Fag Money" into shares. Peps, the forerunner of ISA's had just started, and knowing nothing about investing I put £1000, (the maximum you could invest in a year) into an investment company who would manage it on my behalf. The company brought me shares in 4 companies, cant remember them all, but I do remember Amec was one. Every week I checked the share prices in the paper and was so pleased to see the value of my portfolio rising.

After a year a statement arrived and I was surprised to learn that I no longer owned the 4 shares I'd started with. They had been sold and 4 different shares brought. With dealing costs and management fees my £1000 was now worth nearer £800. But these people were the experts so I figured they knew what they were doing, so I let it ride and again the value rose. A year later another statement arrived and again those 4 shares had been sold and again, with the dealing costs and management fees my £1000 was down to almost £500. This at a time when had they not sold either batch of shares I would have been siting on a fair profit!

That was when I decided that the management company's objectives was not the same as mine. I wanted my money to make me rich but they wanted my money to make them rich. Obviously at that point I cut my losses, got back what was left and decided to do my own investing, and I've never looked back. Obviously I've made a few mistakes, we all do. But my portfolio is now worth many times the £1000 it started off at. I add a little when I have some spare money, although being now retired that's not so often as it was. But I've never regretted taking charge of my own destiny.
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Alan Selwood
Posted: 21 January 2018 16:40:17(UTC)
#48

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I can well imagine that if they had spread your money over the 10 most profitable companies in the Mid 250 index in terms of profit levels and growth rates, and did no dealing for 5 years other than to replace any company that was taken over, you would have had quite a smooth ride and few losses, while making a decent profit.
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Theo Shackleton on 21/01/2018(UTC)
colin overton
Posted: 21 January 2018 17:58:43(UTC)
#49

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As a current net seller of stocks and shares I found your question interesting and somewhat difficult. I have tried to read much of this thread but don't entirely understand why you are in a rush to invest? No-one knows what will happen in 2018, neither do I believe that everything that goes up must come down or vice versa. However when you see many/some Unit Trusts making good growth in each of the last five years you begin to wonder what the next few years hold. I have never been one to base my investment decisions on politics. However I don't imagine markets would take well to a neo-Trotskyist and incompetent government. There is also Brexit to consider. even if you are pro. Any "foreign" investment will ultimately be affected by currency movements.
At 35 you've your "entire investment life" in front of you. You mention the £20k that's burning a hole in your pocket but given your comments I would imagine there will be more spare cash to come in future years. However perhaps time might be at a premium? Therefore you want something that is likely to be safe-ish and steady-ish, nothing too spicy.
I would partially agree with some of the actual investments that have been suggested but would recommend that you do as you suggest and invest monthly in an few Unit Trusts, these are cheap/free to buy, sell and arguably to hold - there will be a platform cost. If anything happens that you don't like to can stop or change - often for little or no cost. You may wish to consider any holdings in an ISA as this will initially protect you against income tax and eventually (hopefully!) against CGT - you could invest across 2 tax years to use up your £20k. An ISA is not essential if you have used it up for this year. I would personally try to avoid having both an ISA and non-ISA investment account for simplicity. I have been trying for years to consolidate within an ISA.
Investments change in popularity and success (which comes first?), I can recall a time when global investments were something I mostly avoided. Now they're "in". Income funds were the flavour of the last 5-10 years but with for example Neil Woodford's fall from grace seem less of a good, sure bet today. SE Asian, China and India have done well in recent years, and even Russia admittedly from a low base. I dare say things will change in the future.
I hold and would/will continue to invest in:
Fundsmith (UT),
an American Tracker UT - perhaps L&G (which depends on which platform you pick - HL are big, safe, good and some people will tell you expensive, I have not found them so),
J O Hambro UK Equity Income,
Perhaps First State Greater China Growth or something in India, for a bit of spice.
If you fancy an Investment trust, F&C or Witan, but buy/sell these in larger "lumps" to avoid excessive costs.
Perhaps most importantly you, and you alone, are responsible for your investment choices and you should take an interest in them, reviewing progress at least quarterly. So pick a platform that easy to use on-line. If you can't do this just buy Fundsmith and go to sleep until you see it mentioned in the national press (sic) or Terry Smith retires.
One warning, if there is a crash or even a bad down turn you will not be able to get out in time and must take your medicine. Overall I think you'll be fine as long as you remain calm and take an interest. Good luck!

4 users thanked colin overton for this post.
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Theo Shackleton
Posted: 21 January 2018 18:24:42(UTC)
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Thanks for your advice, Colin. Thanks also to John, Alan, and King.

I actually have a six figure sum burning a hole in my pocket. Don't own any property or have any shares. Have lived in a pretty frugal way, just working and saving. So my portfolio is presently 100% cash, which has been bothering me for a while, not least when cash has been performing poorly against inflation for a while now. Oh, and I haven't paid into a pension either. So I want to start taking sensible measures soon to diversify a bit and protect what I've worked for, and hopefully grow it, over the long term. Most things seem to be inflated in value - property, gold, stocks, bonds. Only the one I'm overly exposed to has been declining (as far as I know). That said, my personal inflation rate is quite low as I'm not materialistic at all. However, sterling could take further hits going forward, for the reasons you mention, but in any case, I neither like nor trust our central bank and their debasing activities.

I like the look of vanguard life strategy 80 because it has depth within that asset class (mostly equities) and is balanced by some bonds. Also low management costs. I'd be interested in buying into fundsmith or similar to some extent as well. I also want some gold - is there any danger in buying gold stocks? In the sense that I wouldn't hold the metal myself? Or are those reliable?

I like the idea of:

Vanguard 80 or similar for around 30% of portfolio. Or some fundsmith type as well.

A commodities type of fund covering precious metals, minerals, and energy. Maybe 15%

Continuously drip feed into those over time, but at a rate that moves me away from cash sooner rather than later. Maybe shovel some more in during bear episodes.

Then some actual gold kept in a safe place.

And the rest, around 50%, cash. But aim to buy some property somewhere in the world not too expensive. Brexit might affect this from a Europe perspective, so may need to be patient.

So I think overall that would be roughly 10% bonds, 25% equities, 10% commodities, plus currency. Going for depth and low running costs in all of these by choosing broad tracking funds, and in cash - including some gold and non sterling, like Swiss francs and US dollars. Then at some point buy some bricks and mortar so I have tangible assets I can enjoy, perhaps somewhere like Spain. Something basic, somewhere niceish for around 40k. I've viewed such places but backed off because of the poor exchange rate.
King Lodos
Posted: 21 January 2018 18:35:01(UTC)
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The thing with Brexit and UK political risk of course is that Sterling might be a terrible investment .. And with potential inflation (it's certainly picking up faster than many expect – who knows where that goes?) cash and bonds could become even more unattractive.

Whatever happens round the corner, I think right now all you can say is stocks look reasonable – and I'd say there's as much chance they're worth a lot more in a year's time as there is they're worth a lot less .. Reagan was the last time we got a tax cut like this in the US, and that was a great two decades for stocks.

My core fund holdings at the moment are Fundsmith, LT Global and L&G Technology Index – which produces quite a nice looking top 10 holdings (with a little Russia for value):

https://i.imgur.com/Vip7U6v.jpg


I'm trying to split my portfolio more between buy-and-hold (quality stocks and real estate) and actively traded (ETFs and individual stocks) – what I've learnt for me is there's no middle-of-the-road when you're taking active decisions .. You either need high conviction, complete flexibility, or you're better buying-and-holding and being very selective
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King Lodos
Posted: 21 January 2018 18:54:57(UTC)
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Theo Shackleton;55724 wrote:
Thanks for your advice, Colin. Thanks also to John, Alan, and King.

I actually have a six figure sum burning a hole in my pocket. Don't own any property or have any shares. Have lived in a pretty frugal way, just working and saving. So my portfolio is presently 100% cash, which has been bothering me for a while, not least when cash has been performing poorly against inflation for a while now. Oh, and I haven't paid into a pension either. So I want to start taking sensible measures soon to diversify a bit and protect what I've worked for, and hopefully grow it, over the long term. Most things seem to be inflated in value - property, gold, stocks, bonds. Only the one I'm overly exposed to has been declining (as far as I know). That said, my personal inflation rate is quite low as I'm not materialistic at all. However, sterling could take further hits going forward, for the reasons you mention, but in any case, I neither like nor trust our central bank and their debasing activities.

I like the look of vanguard life strategy 80 because it has depth within that asset class (mostly equities) and is balanced by some bonds. Also low management costs. I'd be interested in buying into fundsmith or similar to some extent as well. I also want some gold - is there any danger in buying gold stocks? In the sense that I wouldn't hold the metal myself? Or are those reliable?

I like the idea of:

Vanguard 80 or similar for around 30% of portfolio. Or some fundsmith type as well.

A commodities type of fund covering precious metals, minerals, and energy. Maybe 15%

Continuously drip feed into those over time, but at a rate that moves me away from cash sooner rather than later. Maybe shovel some more in during bear episodes.

Then some actual gold kept in a safe place.

And the rest, around 50%, cash. But aim to buy some property somewhere in the world not too expensive. Brexit might affect this from a Europe perspective, so may need to be patient.

So I think overall that would be roughly 10% bonds, 25% equities, 10% commodities, plus currency. Going for depth and low running costs in all of these by choosing broad tracking funds, and in cash - including some gold and non sterling, like Swiss francs and US dollars. Then at some point buy some bricks and mortar so I have tangible assets I can enjoy, perhaps somewhere like Spain. Something basic, somewhere niceish for around 40k. I've viewed such places but backed off because of the poor exchange rate.


I think it's best to learn as you go, and not put yourself in a position where you could lose too much before you're confident in the best way to invest for you.

Reading is the best investment there is – there are so many books on investing, and many effective perspectives you can learn from (if you're good at balancing a lot of different ideas, and not seeing any as gospel or straight instruction manuals) .. I'm reading The New Buffettology at the moment, and find its rational outlining of value investing principles very harmonious with me.

As a rule, I'd say anything that makes investing seem simple is a good sign.

If you've got cash, you really needn't worry as much about diversification .. Gold and bonds are useful for portfolios otherwise very heavily in stocks, but with anything over 30% cash, you really are hedged against falls in stocks – you ensure you've got purchasing power when markets are down .. I used to overdiversify, and hold too much cash – one or the other: no point doing both.

Gold and commodities are really hedges against stagflation .. An insurance against something that hasn't happened since the 70s .. Bonds are very expensive now, and unlikely to be any better than cash (imo) .. If we're in a low inflation future, you've got 75% of your portfolio achieving nothing (possibly just losing 3% a year) .. High inflation, and your cash holdings will be destroyed anyway (10% commodities won't help enough).

I think most the market agrees stocks are the only game in town for the foreseeable future .. 50:50 stocks and NS&I bonds would give you something close to what Warren Buffett holds .. Also: never assume there's going to be a better buying opportunity – sometimes they don't come along for 20-30 years







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Theo Shackleton
Posted: 21 January 2018 20:01:44(UTC)
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Great points, King. Thanks

So how about the vanguard life strategy 100 for depth and only invest in that for the equities part of the portfolio. What downsides would you see in that? It's very broad with low management costs. Covers the stockmarket and embraces new comers.

So maybe for the portfolio

30% vanguard
30% nsi (although 2.1% return is what I could get in a fixed term saving bond, or less).
40% cash (aiming to split that a little between different currencies and some gold.)

I don't feel that excited by the bonds part of that yo be honest. It seems as though I might as well stick with fixed term savings.

I want to take advantage of this year's and next year's isa limits, so 40k. I favour going into equities with that. What would be a reasomably sensible rate to invest in the vanguard? All at once seems very risky.

Ps. I got the little common sense book of investing :)
Theo Shackleton
Posted: 21 January 2018 20:10:05(UTC)
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Further to the above, if I have 20k to put into the stock market, would putting 20k into vanguard 100, seem like such a bad idea in the long run (bearing in mind none of us can see the future, and I want low fees and diversification)? Then add to it over time.
Theo Shackleton
Posted: 21 January 2018 20:23:42(UTC)
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Assume I am happy to invest over a long period like 25 years.
King Lodos
Posted: 21 January 2018 20:35:34(UTC)
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Well I'd see NS&I bonds as cash .. I'd say you should have all your cash that you don't need immediate access to in there, unless you can get better than 2.17% risk-free somewhere.

It's a 5-year bond with NS&I, but you can withdraw cash at any time for a 90 day deduction in interest on the cash you withdraw .. So it's a savings account.

So 70% in cash and 30% in stocks might just about achieve keeping up with inflation – if that's all you're aiming to do, and assuming inflation doesn't surprise us.


I think Vanguard LS100 is a great choice – or the Global All-Cap Tracker for a slightly lower fee (I doubt there'll be any noticeable difference in outcome) .. If you don't want to mess around trying to find the value or growth spots in the market, it really makes most sense just to buy the whole market, and do it cheaply.

One reason I like Fundsmith and LT Global, on the other hand, is because you're only investing in great companies (companies that have been around 100+ years in many cases, with great brands and profitability) .. And if you're neurotic about losing money, like me, investing in great companies can give you some peace of mind.

The way I'd see it, cash isn't a good investment – it's really a surefire way to lose value over time .. If you could see what inflation does to cash, you'd see that the cash you're holding actually costs you £thousands a year in virtual fees.

What cash is good for, as an investor, is having the option to buy stocks when they're available at a bargain .. But your real wealth, and ability to generate a passive income, is simply going to come down to how much of these great companies you own (or how much of the economy you own – if you go the index route) .. So I'd be thinking between 30-50% in cash-like assets, and otherwise stocks and perhaps some real estate, and maybe 5% gold as a disaster hedge (optional)
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Theo Shackleton on 22/01/2018(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 21 January 2018 20:46:20(UTC)
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Incidentally you can see what a very defensive portfolio looks like today – if you go to the Asset Allocation tab

http://www.taml.co.uk/funds/uk-ucits/trojan-fund/

Troy Trojan

30% cash
36% mostly quality stocks

And the rest in inflation-linked bonds and gold (so there's protection if inflation comes along and threatens to destroy the value of the cash, and if stagflation comes along and destroys the cash and stocks).

So there's the three equal slices approach: productive assets, wealth preservation, inflation protection.

We probably do under-allocate for inflation protection tbh .. It's just a bit of a tricky bet at the moment as it's a real coin toss whether it comes back, and it's a potential drag on returns otherwise (you can see the fund's failed to make much of a return over the past year).

You could consider allocating to funds like this – Troy Trojan and Ruffer Total Return are both good capital preservation funds .. The downside is you pay a fee; the upside is there's protection in these funds that cash alone doesn't offer.
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Theo Shackleton on 22/01/2018(UTC)
Ludditeme
Posted: 21 January 2018 21:00:49(UTC)
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@KL - I’m interested in the reasons that have changed your mind about Fundsmith. I can remember numerous comments from you over the last couple of years regarding it’s better to choose a consumer staples tracker, because of the compounding effect of the fees. What have you unearthed?

Cheers
Alan Selwood
Posted: 21 January 2018 21:05:06(UTC)
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Theo

As I'm sure you realise, there are an almost infinite number of possible answers to your requests for portfolio ideas.

From what you have said in your last few posts, with £100,000 in cash at the moment rather than the original '20K to invest asap' heading, you are in a strong position for diversifying without too much risk of sudden market upheavals destroying your wealth.

What you hold in cash gives you stability of the paper value of your capital, but is at risk of erosion by inflation : at present you can reckon on about 4% less whatever net interest you can acquire from it. So pretty stable unless inflation starts to run away.

In normal conditions, bonds would be a good way to stabilise income, with relatively mild swings in capital values unless inflation accelerates. However, the current price of bonds is very high, and the overall yield (interest + capital changes) is minimal or negative, with the added risk that if interest rates and inflation increase, they will perform fairly badly and under-perform cash on deposit.

Equities are designed for long term investment, and capital values do vary up and down, usually unpredictably, though in the long term tend to produce the most growth of capital together with rising dividends; dividends are more stable than day-to-day capital values, especially if you select equity holdings where the long term dividend record is strong.

Gold mining shares do not behave like gold : the shares do much better when gold prices rise, and much worse when gold prices fall. The shares are at much greater risk of total loss, because mining has high fixed costs, and if the gold price is low, the overheads can more than eat up whatever sales revenues can be obtained. Conversely, if the gold price rises, the fixed costs form a lower part of the total, and profits can leap upwards in good years (leading to new mines coming on stream, which increases the supply and causes sales prices to fall, leading to reduced profits for economical mines and even wipe-out for expensive producers). I would suggest you stick with the gold itself unless you become an expert in the gold mining sector! I use BullionVault, which has better security than my house, and allows me to store gold securely outside my own country.

I think that you should consider your intended long-term mix to suit your needs and your ability to prosper in adversity, both financially and psychologically.

In your position (which, of course, I am not!), I would think it quite reasonable to put £20,000 in an ISA to invest in equities, with a repeat later in the calendar year, once in the new tax year - perhaps in October?

2 x annual subscriptions to ISAs gives you a 40% allocation to equities, which is still pretty cautious as an approach.
Bonds I would personally ignore unless interest rates climb considerably and net yield go several % p.a. better than cash.
Gold is worth perhaps £10,000 out of your £100,000 as a long term hold, with daily, monthly and annual prices ignored for perhaps 10 years at a time.

If you did all of the above, you would be 40% equities, 10% gold, 50% cash.

Then see how the wind blows, and if anything becomes really cheap, top up!

As to where to put your equity money, why not £20,000 in Fundsmith Equity Fund + £20,000 in a global equity tracker, see how you feel about both for a year or two, then perhaps top up the one that seems to have the edge? Personally, I would, with £100,000 for the long term, put £50,000 in Fundsmith as a core holding, then hunt around for some opportunities in other sectors than Fundsmith's global megacaps (e.g. a smaller companies fund, or a small punt on technology through a fund) for another £20,000 or £25,000 and then top up with £10,000 gold and a bit of exposure to property through an investment trust such as [TRY], while keeping £5,000 to £15,000 in cash as a rainy day fund which would also give you firepower with which to buy anything of good quality that is on sale at cheap prices after a major market upset.

None of the above should be seen as a recommendation, of course, just me thinking aloud!
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Mickey
Posted: 21 January 2018 21:58:31(UTC)
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Theo Shackleton;55728 wrote:
Further to the above, if I have 20k to put into the stock market, would putting 20k into vanguard 100, seem like such a bad idea in the long run (bearing in mind none of us can see the future, and I want low fees and diversification)? Then add to it over time.


Not a bad idea at all, I have advised my wife to do similar using the VLS 60 or 80% fund, she is 50% cash and slightly older.
Money Spider
Posted: 21 January 2018 22:45:37(UTC)
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I haven't read all of this thread, so I apologise if I am repeating an earlier post.
I think that you actually have two objectives:
1. To invest £20k in an ISA this year (FY). This is probably why your original post is worded as it is.
2. You want advice on where to invest this ISA (which assets).

These decisions can be independent of one another. For example, you can invest in an ISA account on your selected platform before 5 April. Job (1) done. ISA subscriptions cannot be carried forward and if you have decided to invest this money then an ISA is a good vehicle to do it with (no income tax, no CGT).

You can decide where to invest the money in the ISA at your leisure and at a time of your choosing. For example, invest £4k each month/each alternate month/ on each month with 31 days/a dice roll - it's your choice.
Plenty of advice has been given earlier in the thread on asset choice. Everyone will have a personal choice, but with overlap on some core assets (like Vanguard LifeStrategy).

You mention that you have £100k to invest, so you could put another £20k in your ISA in the next FY (from 6 April).
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Bellabeck on 22/01/2018(UTC), Theo Shackleton on 22/01/2018(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 21 January 2018 22:47:09(UTC)
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Ludditeme;55732 wrote:
@KL - I’m interested in the reasons that have changed your mind about Fundsmith. I can remember numerous comments from you over the last couple of years regarding it’s better to choose a consumer staples tracker, because of the compounding effect of the fees. What have you unearthed?

Cheers


To an extent I do that with everything.

Almost entirely I've been waiting to see whether Fundsmith and LT Global would pull away and differentiate themselves from the Consumer Staples sector, and they have just recently.

Fundsmith's fee is still a concern – if we have 5% returns going forwards, it could be a 20% cut of that year-on-year .. So it might be that I recommend buying individual quality stocks of the kind Fundsmith and LT hold above the funds – but of course you have to look at dealing fees
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Ludditeme on 22/01/2018(UTC), Jeff Liddiard on 22/01/2018(UTC)
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