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Is it possible to make a good income online?
S_M
Posted: 13 July 2016 05:41:13(UTC)
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Joe Soap;35219 wrote:
Annika Small;35051 wrote:
There is no such thing as easy money. Either way you have to invest time, effort and money. It takes hard work really.

I know someone who plays poker on line for a living. He started recently with almost nothing but now has a paid for house he is renovating to let, is a part owner in a bricks and mortar gambling club, part owner in a couple of gambling websites and has other bits and bobs on the go. All his gambling income is tax free and he chooses what to do each day as he sees fit since his gambling takes up the evening and night leaving his days free.

Not bad, but not for everyone.


I have three sources of income - work, matched betting and poker. With regards to poker it is not easy to beat the game and takes a lot of dedication and time studying strategy to make sure you are ahead of your competition at the tables. 85-90% of poker players lose money, the rest either survive on rake back payments from their poker site or actually show a profit.

The downside of playing poker as a sole occupation is you will never get a mortgage, but fair play to your friend he seems to have done well.

Since the Americans where banned from playing online, poker has become a much tougher game to beat and personally I like to play small ball, and be happy with making enough for a nice holiday every year rather than having to put ridiculous amounts of money on the tables. On sky poker they have a "top of the pots" hand every week where the size of the pot for one hand is quite often north of £2-£3k, pretty insane given that amount of money changes hands in less than a minute.

Arleen Perez
Posted: 01 August 2016 05:30:14(UTC)
#53

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Depends on what you call good income. If you're looking for jobs, try Upwork.
1 user thanked Arleen Perez for this post.
Reorganising my Portfolio on 01/08/2016(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 01 August 2016 07:54:57(UTC)
#48

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S_M;35252 wrote:
Joe Soap;35219 wrote:
Annika Small;35051 wrote:
There is no such thing as easy money. Either way you have to invest time, effort and money. It takes hard work really.

I know someone who plays poker on line for a living. He started recently with almost nothing but now has a paid for house he is renovating to let, is a part owner in a bricks and mortar gambling club, part owner in a couple of gambling websites and has other bits and bobs on the go. All his gambling income is tax free and he chooses what to do each day as he sees fit since his gambling takes up the evening and night leaving his days free.

Not bad, but not for everyone.


I have three sources of income - work, matched betting and poker. With regards to poker it is not easy to beat the game and takes a lot of dedication and time studying strategy to make sure you are ahead of your competition at the tables. 85-90% of poker players lose money, the rest either survive on rake back payments from their poker site or actually show a profit.

The downside of playing poker as a sole occupation is you will never get a mortgage, but fair play to your friend he seems to have done well.

Since the Americans where banned from playing online, poker has become a much tougher game to beat and personally I like to play small ball, and be happy with making enough for a nice holiday every year rather than having to put ridiculous amounts of money on the tables. On sky poker they have a "top of the pots" hand every week where the size of the pot for one hand is quite often north of £2-£3k, pretty insane given that amount of money changes hands in less than a minute.



Reminded me of this Michael Platt (BlueCrest) quote

“I look for the type of guy in London who gets up at seven o’clock on Sunday morning when his kids are still in bed, and logs onto a poker site so that he can pick off the U.S. drunks coming home on Saturday night. I hired a guy like that. He usually clears 5 or 10 grand every Sunday morning before breakfast taking out the drunks playing poker because they're not very good at it, but their confidence has gone up a lot. That’s the type of guy you want – someone who understands edge. Analysts, on the other hand, don’t think about anything else other than how smart they are.”

I miss the AllBlue hedge fund ... Did what all the GARS funds could only crudely simulate with hefty amounts of beta
2 users thanked King Lodos for this post.
S_M on 01/08/2016(UTC), Reorganising my Portfolio on 01/08/2016(UTC)
S_M
Posted: 01 August 2016 12:36:54(UTC)
#49

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King Lodos;35815 wrote:
S_M;35252 wrote:
Joe Soap;35219 wrote:
Annika Small;35051 wrote:
There is no such thing as easy money. Either way you have to invest time, effort and money. It takes hard work really.

I know someone who plays poker on line for a living. He started recently with almost nothing but now has a paid for house he is renovating to let, is a part owner in a bricks and mortar gambling club, part owner in a couple of gambling websites and has other bits and bobs on the go. All his gambling income is tax free and he chooses what to do each day as he sees fit since his gambling takes up the evening and night leaving his days free.

Not bad, but not for everyone.


I have three sources of income - work, matched betting and poker. With regards to poker it is not easy to beat the game and takes a lot of dedication and time studying strategy to make sure you are ahead of your competition at the tables. 85-90% of poker players lose money, the rest either survive on rake back payments from their poker site or actually show a profit.

The downside of playing poker as a sole occupation is you will never get a mortgage, but fair play to your friend he seems to have done well.

Since the Americans where banned from playing online, poker has become a much tougher game to beat and personally I like to play small ball, and be happy with making enough for a nice holiday every year rather than having to put ridiculous amounts of money on the tables. On sky poker they have a "top of the pots" hand every week where the size of the pot for one hand is quite often north of £2-£3k, pretty insane given that amount of money changes hands in less than a minute.



Reminded me of this Michael Platt (BlueCrest) quote

“I look for the type of guy in London who gets up at seven o’clock on Sunday morning when his kids are still in bed, and logs onto a poker site so that he can pick off the U.S. drunks coming home on Saturday night. I hired a guy like that. He usually clears 5 or 10 grand every Sunday morning before breakfast taking out the drunks playing poker because they're not very good at it, but their confidence has gone up a lot. That’s the type of guy you want – someone who understands edge. Analysts, on the other hand, don’t think about anything else other than how smart they are.”

I miss the AllBlue hedge fund ... Did what all the GARS funds could only crudely simulate with hefty amounts of beta


Quite an apt analogy. Poker is very similar to trading/investing and requires an understanding of human psychology, risk management, financial discipline and maths.
1 user thanked S_M for this post.
King Lodos on 01/08/2016(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 01 August 2016 18:35:29(UTC)
#50

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S_M;35821 wrote:
King Lodos;35815 wrote:
S_M;35252 wrote:
Joe Soap;35219 wrote:
Annika Small;35051 wrote:
There is no such thing as easy money. Either way you have to invest time, effort and money. It takes hard work really.

I know someone who plays poker on line for a living. He started recently with almost nothing but now has a paid for house he is renovating to let, is a part owner in a bricks and mortar gambling club, part owner in a couple of gambling websites and has other bits and bobs on the go. All his gambling income is tax free and he chooses what to do each day as he sees fit since his gambling takes up the evening and night leaving his days free.

Not bad, but not for everyone.


I have three sources of income - work, matched betting and poker. With regards to poker it is not easy to beat the game and takes a lot of dedication and time studying strategy to make sure you are ahead of your competition at the tables. 85-90% of poker players lose money, the rest either survive on rake back payments from their poker site or actually show a profit.

The downside of playing poker as a sole occupation is you will never get a mortgage, but fair play to your friend he seems to have done well.

Since the Americans where banned from playing online, poker has become a much tougher game to beat and personally I like to play small ball, and be happy with making enough for a nice holiday every year rather than having to put ridiculous amounts of money on the tables. On sky poker they have a "top of the pots" hand every week where the size of the pot for one hand is quite often north of £2-£3k, pretty insane given that amount of money changes hands in less than a minute.



Reminded me of this Michael Platt (BlueCrest) quote

“I look for the type of guy in London who gets up at seven o’clock on Sunday morning when his kids are still in bed, and logs onto a poker site so that he can pick off the U.S. drunks coming home on Saturday night. I hired a guy like that. He usually clears 5 or 10 grand every Sunday morning before breakfast taking out the drunks playing poker because they're not very good at it, but their confidence has gone up a lot. That’s the type of guy you want – someone who understands edge. Analysts, on the other hand, don’t think about anything else other than how smart they are.”

I miss the AllBlue hedge fund ... Did what all the GARS funds could only crudely simulate with hefty amounts of beta


Quite an apt analogy. Poker is very similar to trading/investing and requires an understanding of human psychology, risk management, financial discipline and maths.


I've really come to appreciate that – the Brevan Howard hedge fund recently hired a top European poker player (I believe)

I only play against poker AIs to keep myself sharp, but I find going for lots of little wins (I guess playing the odds but keeping risk low) is a lot like trading with tight stops

Where the AI gets me is these 1 in 200 hands where I'm confident and want to maximise profits (I did a similar thing with gold miners this year – doubling up – successfully), and I'm convinced the opponent is bluffing ... and it takes me to the cleaners ... I haven't worked out how to plug that hole yet ... Must be the AI's waiting for a 1 in 200 hand, knowing I've (at best) got a 1 in 100
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Reorganising my Portfolio on 01/08/2016(UTC)
Reorganising my Portfolio
Posted: 01 August 2016 19:17:14(UTC)
#54

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I wonder with these online Poker sites whether
you are actually playing online players who are real?
Or are you playing a computer ?
They draw you in and then they blow you out in Bubbles.?

S_M
Posted: 01 August 2016 20:32:47(UTC)
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If you are referring to "poker bots" then yes they exist. The big poker sites have invested vast sums of money to identify these bots, but you always have some that slip through the net.

On Sky Poker, my preferred site the players identified two bots by their very mechanical set way of joining and playing games. Initially Sky dismissed this, but after some significant player pressure they investigated and we never saw the said players again.

In playing the game for 6 years, this is the only instance of coming across poker bots. With regards to the rest of the players there is a significant community feeling to Sky Poker and they regularly have events in Nottingham where regulars can qualify online.

I have also made friends from the site and met several players, who unless they are a form of AI which I could not detect look human enough to me!

That aside, if you have the ability to study the game a basic grasp of maths (probability) and a solid temperament there is money to be made. It is no coincidence that one of the best female poker players in the world has a degree in astrophysics. People who have an above average IQ generally do well at the game.

http://www.livboeree.com/about-liv/
Reorganising my Portfolio
Posted: 01 August 2016 21:17:01(UTC)
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S_M
Bookmakers who are willing to give you free bets to encourage you to bet on these Poker sites
are hardly doing just that for your benefit?
The old saying is you never see a poor bookmaker.
I am deeply suspicious that play on these sites is all that is supposed to be.
Alan Selwood
Posted: 01 August 2016 22:03:00(UTC)
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Rather than betting, I recommend that you spend a couple of hours watching the now fairly old film of James Garner as 'Maverick' on a Mississippi river-boat in a poker competition. Much more entertaining (IMHO) and very much cheaper as an activity unless you are the bank/bookmaker.

As my Dad used to say:
Those that bet and know are crooks.
Those that bet and don't are fools!
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Reorganising my Portfolio on 02/08/2016(UTC)
S_M
Posted: 02 August 2016 05:46:21(UTC)
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Oh dear the above two posts show the lack of understanding of both how Poker works, and why bookmakers whilst they have a house edge can be exploited through Matched Betting techniques.

Firstly, poker is not a game against the house/bookmaker. It is the only game both online and offline, that relies on skill versus other players. The house charges a "rake" for hosting the game but it is insignificant in relation to the size of each pot. If you are more knowledgeable and display the traits I described above more than your opponents you will prevail in the long run.

So what brings losing players back to the table? Well as I have already have said poker is a game of probability, you can get yourself into a situation where you are an 80% favourite to win a hand, but 20% of the time you will lose. Play this scenario out hundreds and even thousands of times and I hope the doubters will see that you will prevail in the long run. Another thing that brings losing poker players back is ego, if they win a hand through playing badly and don't realise it they will come back again and make the same mistakes.

Matched Betting turns house/bookmaker edge on it's head and mainly applies to sports betting. Every bookmaker prices their odds in a way that gives them a few percentage point margin.The margin is the bookmakers perceived value of the the likely chance of an outcome, for instance a horse to win a race or a football team to win a match. Bookmakers get this right more often than they get it wrong, hence 90% plus of punters will lose at the bookies.

Matched betting involves covering all outcomes by backing with the bookie and laying (which means covering the other option(s)) on an exchange such as Betfair. So you might back Arsenal to win with Ladbrokes, but on Betfair you lay the bet which means you are covering the possibility of a draw or an away win. The bookies offer free bets as an enticement to signup to their site and keep betting after the signup. So for the Arsenal example you may be offered a £20 free bet if it is a signup. Once the match finishes we are given a free bet, which we can use to bet on pretty much anything, again we cover all outcomes and because we are not paying for the free bet, this allows us to exploit the bookmaker and clear a profit.

Bookies don't like matched bettors because they are unprofitable over the longer term, and they will restrict accounts by denying promotions, if they suspect a customer is using this technique. Regardless of this it is possible to make thousands before the bookmakers start to cotton on, even then there are many things you can do to throw the bookmaker off your scent.

I made several hundred pounds during Euro 2016, when the bookmakers ramped up their offers for each game.

If after this explanation you remain sceptical that is fine by me, it's better that things like Matched Betting don't go mainstream otherwise that will ruin it for us that do understand how things really are. It is possible to make in excess of £10k a year matched betting without spending a lot of time on something for me that is a hobby, what's there not to like about that!
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Reorganising my Portfolio on 02/08/2016(UTC), Greylocks on 31/12/2017(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 02 August 2016 07:57:11(UTC)
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S_M;35836 wrote:
That aside, if you have the ability to study the game a basic grasp of maths (probability) and a solid temperament there is money to be made. It is no coincidence that one of the best female poker players in the world has a degree in astrophysics. People who have an above average IQ generally do well at the game.

http://www.livboeree.com/about-liv/


Funnily enough I'm a vague acquaintance of Liv ... Really nice girl ... I remember years back when she was plucked for a Channel 4 show in which they taught a small group of people off the street how to play poker

Alan Selwood;35842 wrote:
Rather than betting, I recommend that you spend a couple of hours watching the now fairly old film of James Garner as 'Maverick' on a Mississippi river-boat in a poker competition. Much more entertaining (IMHO) and very much cheaper as an activity unless you are the bank/bookmaker.

As my Dad used to say:
Those that bet and know are crooks.
Those that bet and don't are fools!


I will look up that film ... Loved Daniel Craig's Bond playing against Mads Mikkelson (sp?) in 2006's Casino Royale

I must admit I find more parallels between poker and investing than I used to ... When I invest in an infrastructure fund, I am betting on it going up

If it goes down 15%, I might double down on the bet (AKA rebalance), or I might fold (AKA use a stop) ... Statistically, either tends to work out better than doing nothing, because of course some markets just keep going down

Worst case, I keep rebalancing into a losing asset (the kind of poker hands you don't want to get drawn into – "raise, raise, dammit raise" – e.g. Japan post-1990)

Income investing feels much less like betting/gambling, but then we know that *really* a dividend is just earnings that other companies are using to expand their businesses ... So I think dividends only give the illusion of a guaranteed return – they're not creating anything from thin air

I probably haven't made the case very well, but when it comes down to it, it doesn't make much difference whether I invest on my fund platform, or my spread betting account ... It's just the latter somehow feels much more like gambling (it can actually be a lot safer)
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Reorganising my Portfolio on 02/08/2016(UTC)
Reorganising my Portfolio
Posted: 02 August 2016 08:29:11(UTC)
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s_m .
My comments are based solely on Online poker
I enjoy poker as a game among friends.

What I will say about the bookmakers is they are quick to tell you about their
lose on a particular day (Re horse bets) but rarely tell you about their vast profits.

I was glad to see you have amassed 10k over the year,but suggest if you where
doing that on regular basis say monthly ,the bookmaker would suspend your account.
and ask you to bet elsewhere if you are lucky as all bookmaker security is linked.

My family owned horses in the 60/70s and often had good information on how
a horse had been layed out to win with huge success,trying to get a big bet on in those days
to certain parties was difficult .With today's massive security nigh impossible.

I think Barney Curley was the last a couple of years ago.?
Those free bets and double the odds one winner rules on certain bets are BAIT.






S_M
Posted: 02 August 2016 10:01:39(UTC)
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Reorganising my Portfolio;35848 wrote:
s_m .
My comments are based solely on Online poker
I enjoy poker as a game among friends.

What I will say about the bookmakers is they are quick to tell you about their
lose on a particular day (Re horse bets) but rarely tell you about their vast profits.

I was glad to see you have amassed 10k over the year,but suggest if you where
doing that on regular basis say monthly ,the bookmaker would suspend your account.
and ask you to bet elsewhere if you are lucky as all bookmaker security is linked.

My family owned horses in the 60/70s and often had good information on how
a horse had been layed out to win with huge success,trying to get a big bet on in those days
to certain parties was difficult .With today's massive security nigh impossible.

I think Barney Curley was the last a couple of years ago.?
Those free bets and double the odds one winner rules on certain bets are BAIT.








And that's why I hold shares in Paddy Power Betfair at the moment, the undisputed leader in the market. Although Ladbrokes and Coral's seem to be intent on a tie up. Most people lose at the bookies there is no disputing that.

I know nothing about horses, all I know about it the mechanics of matched betting and maths. I apply this knowledge to give myself an edge versus the bookies. I know more about football and the same applies. If I am betting on a football match I am not always looking at form but the odds and if they fit the criteria for matched betting. Backing an underdog is perfectly acceptable in matched betting because if it loses, then my exchange lay wins. When I am making lay bets on betfair I am effectively the bookie and someone else is taking my odds.

In the 4 months I have been doing this, I have lost two bookies mainly because I flagged myself up with my betting patterns and took Paddy Power for £1300 from an initial deposit of £30. Naturally they didn't like this, a similar thing happened with Betfair.

Now I am backing lower odds horses and trying to lose at the bookie and win at the exchange, it is helping keep my bookie accounts in good order. If by the time I have all my bookmaker accounts restricted for promotions, I have made £20/30k I am more than happy with that. Even then there are matched betting techniques, which work on each way races where the bookmaker is offering to pay out on 4 places say instead of 3. There is also Sports Trading on Betfair which is not dissimilar to financial trading but this is much more high risk than Matched Betting, which if you do things right is very low/no risk.




Reorganising my Portfolio
Posted: 02 August 2016 12:34:08(UTC)
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Hi S_M
I'm getting a bit confused with your posts .?
First you are 10k up
Then you are 20-30k up
Yet Paddies have stopped your account because
Of your betting pattern on winning £1300.Really.
Bet fair have also stopped your account.?

Im confused.
Alan Selwood
Posted: 02 August 2016 13:23:11(UTC)
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Getting down to the basics of betting, you have organisers taking a percentage, and participants that individually either win or lose, often in sequence.

If the organisers survive, it means that the aggregate bets by the customers are losers overall.

Anyone who says he can consistently beat the system is like the investor who says he can do market-timing to perfection, while others can't.

Interestingly, the most highly-rated investment managers deny that they can do market-timing successfully. Terry Smith for one, but there are plenty of others.
S_M
Posted: 02 August 2016 15:32:58(UTC)
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Reorganising my Portfolio;35857 wrote:
Hi S_M
I'm getting a bit confused with your posts .?
First you are 10k up
Then you are 20-30k up
Yet Paddies have stopped your account because
Of your betting pattern on winning £1300.Really.
Bet fair have also stopped your account.?

Im confused.


I think you need to read the content closer. I have said it is possible to make £10k (some make a lot more)a year out of matched betting, and personally if I have made £20-£30k over my matched betting life I will be more than happy.

Paddies banned me because I converted £30 into £1300 within a month, I couldn't stop winning. The same thing happened with Betfair when all I did was exploit their horse racing offers the final straw selecting the winner of the Derby.The ideal scenario with Matched Betting is to lose at the bookies and win in the exchange. That's easier said than done! Still there are dozens of bookies out there to carry on matched betting with, it will be a while before I have exhausted all the bookmakers.
S_M
Posted: 02 August 2016 15:38:29(UTC)
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Alan Selwood;35862 wrote:
Getting down to the basics of betting, you have organisers taking a percentage, and participants that individually either win or lose, often in sequence.

If the organisers survive, it means that the aggregate bets by the customers are losers overall.

Anyone who says he can consistently beat the system is like the investor who says he can do market-timing to perfection, while others can't.

Interestingly, the most highly-rated investment managers deny that they can do market-timing successfully. Terry Smith for one, but there are plenty of others.


I really think you need to understand the relationship between the bookmakers and the exchange Alan, something you are not factoring into your comments.

When someone places a bet at the bookies and then lays the opposite outcome at the exchange, in the exchange they are the bookie!

Covering ALL of the outcomes, is what makes matched betting work when there is the inducement of a free bet for meeting certain qualifying criteria.
Reorganising my Portfolio
Posted: 02 August 2016 19:29:23(UTC)
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M _S
Well good luck in your quest for riches.
What I can't get my head round is why
Paddies would stop your account for winning a trivial
£1300.?
I to bet with this company and bet 365 .
I have won in excess of £3000 in a month with both company's
and yet I'm still with both.?
S_M
Posted: 02 August 2016 19:56:24(UTC)
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Reorganising my Portfolio;35871 wrote:
M _S
Well good luck in your quest for riches.
What I can't get my head round is why
Paddies would stop your account for winning a trivial
£1300.?
I to bet with this company and bet 365 .
I have won in excess of £3000 in a month with both company's
and yet I'm still with both.?


Thanks I am not trying to get rich just earn a few extra pounds doing something I love ie watching team sports.

With regards to paddy I can still wager with them but I am banned from their promotions and my max stake has been reduced. The reason you probably still have your accounts is because you aren't taking value off the bookie. Next time you place a bet check out the lay price on betfair. If there is less than 5 % difference then you are taking. Value and the sports traders will monitor your account. If the lay price is higher than the bookie price then you are taking an Arbritrage bet. By using a matched betting calculator you can calculate the stakes require to lay in betfair that ensures you clear a profit regardless of the outcome.

Bookies hate this and will close your account down eventually. I am on my iPad I will send some links that explain taking value tomorrow when I get back to my desktop.
Reorganising my Portfolio
Posted: 02 August 2016 20:48:09(UTC)
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S _ M
Well sorry your story is not adding up?
You said you Paddies had banned you?
Next you say well Paddies have not banned you?
but just reduced your stakes.
I have never heard such a lot of Tosh in all my life.
I have been betting all my life,you don't get banned for winning £1300.
You are a bread and butter punter for Paddies with an opening balance
of £30.
You would need to be winning Large for them to ban you ,and your clearly not.?

A previous poster AS suggested you might wish to Watch the film "Maverick ".
Well I'm suggesting you watch the film " Walter Mitty ".

Enjoy whatever you think you are doing,and please your offer of your system is not for me.
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