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Are GPs paid too much by the NHS?
GMA - Kent
Posted: 07 September 2010 21:13:23(UTC)
#21

Joined: 10/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1

I don't know what my GP's are paid but the service they have provided leaves a lot be desired.
Ricardo Roar
Posted: 07 September 2010 21:23:00(UTC)
#22

Joined: 08/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1

My surgery, before the "improved" contract, was open 5 & a half days a week, two of the nights till later, did not close for lunch hour or have one day lunchtime early closing. They also did not close one day a month for "staff training"
I think the BMA trade union pulled the wool over the eyes of the previouse government. Posssibly not a dificult achievement. This government might consider allowing more surgeries, take off the restrictive practises, in order for us to receive better treatment. There are many dynamic young Doctors out their itching to have a go.
D Wood
Posted: 07 September 2010 21:56:24(UTC)
#23

Joined: 10/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 10

Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Its not just Doctors that work their socks off. What about the other people in society that work their socks off and get forgotten about. What I am talking about is the poorly paid Engineers ( Mechanical / Civil / Electronic / Electrical and scientists (Bio , Physics / Chemistry) of this country. Either raise their pay or decrease that of Doctors. Many of the above have to study as hard as Doctors and even after graduation still have to have their heads in the technical books since technology continually evolves.
Anonymous Post
Posted: 08 September 2010 08:36:34(UTC)
#24
Anonymous 1 needed this 'Off the Record'

There is no doubt that the BMA professional negotiators ran circles round the Civil servants over the new contracts
George

Sorry you are dead wrong - they are weak and essentially powerless (the BMA). The increase in salaries that doctors received now 5+ yrs ago was largely because of long hours worked much of which was unpaid/ unrecognized in our contract - that was certainly true of hospital consultants anyway - i am a consultant radiologist not a GP.
If it makes you feel better my pay was frozen in 09/10 and will be frozen for two more years. With inflation at 3-5% thats a ?10% paycut. There exists a body the DDPRB (docs/dentists pay review body) that negotiates our pay every year - we have had at best a 1% pay rise each year before our pay freeze. This time the govt just completely bypassed the system and set a pay freeze. What do the docs do ? Nothing. We re all too busy and generally not self serving individuals. We crack on regardlesss.
If you don't pay medics a decent slary they will emigrtae to countries like OZ and Canada where pay is i kid you not, the pay is 3-5 times higher for a senior doctor. Its already happening. I suspect this country is going down the tubes.
When it comes to GPs its supply and demand. They had it good because of the lack of docs on the ground. Med school numbers are now triple what they were so there will be many more GPs and lower salaries. At least current GPs get to manage their own practice- in the future i susupect there will private companies running surgeries and paying GPs fixed salaries.
The problem is in this day and age we as a country cannot afford a socialist healthcare system that is used and abused by people that have barely contributed financially to it, that leaks money via PFI etc.

Mr Tom
Posted: 08 September 2010 10:30:45(UTC)
#25

Joined: 05/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 8

Yes, no longer are they in the real world, same league as football players who can't play.
Tay Carlton
Posted: 08 September 2010 10:51:34(UTC)
#26

Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2

I'm amazed that so many people in this forum seem to assume that GPs just "rubber stamp" things and bear no risk.

I'm a GP and I have to pay about £5K a year insurance just to cover my arse when things (inevtiably) go wrong. We see undifferentiated illness very early on: a cough could be anything from a cold to lung cancer, and it can be impossible to tell which.

We are the guys who filter all this stuff and sort out what is serious, what isn't and what we have to watch. This saves the country enormous amounts of money.

We are under pressure to investigate early because people are more inclined to sue us if they aren't happy, and at the same time we know that the more early investigations we do, the more it costs the country (and we are under pressure to use NHS resources wisely) and often the more patients will worry, unnecessarily (as happens in the USA which spends double per capita on healthcare for approxiametly the same outcome).

So let's talk about risk. I'm a pretty average GP. Last week I had to go to court. I was cross examined for an hour by the family's barrister because the family were "sure" that the case had not been handled properly. I also had to attend with my own barrister which took hours to sore out over the past three years with mountains of paperwork. I had this hanging over my head for the last 3 years. Result: the coroner was completly satisifed that everything was above board, but that's not the point. This is what goes on behind the scenes and it takes a lot of time, effort and worry.

In the past few years at my practice a patient has attempted to sue two of use (a case lasting 4 years) because he felt that we had missed an early diagnosis of a rare form of cancer which presented as symptoms of a runy nosse. Again, no fault found but it lasted 4 years and took hours and hours and caused a lot of lost sleep. In fact, our work probably saved his life, but he doesn't see it that way.

This is not just the sort of stuff you leave at work: medicine is not just a job. Many GPs have these sorts of cases going on and most will experience this sort of thing. It's nasty, makes you practice medicine defensively (more tests, more cost) and, if you aren't careful can make you cynical and you most definitely lose sleep over it. With all this we have to still do our job, be kind and compassionate and run the administrative side of our business. And put up with all the nonsense about how much we are paid. If I earned anything like what the papers say I do, I'd be amazed. The range of earnings is enormous. I don't know how it averages out, but GPs who are not partners in a practice will be earning well below £100K.

So: after working as a GP since 1982, I reckon I really earn my (modest) income. I certainly haven't been paid enormous bonuses in order the wreck the country's economy which is what polticians, economists and the financial industry seem to have done. In fact, all that's hapened is that I've received flack from such people.

Here's what's happened as I see it: the government uniltarelly imposed a really nasty contract on us, said we didn't work hard enough, linked our pay to "quality outcomes" which they thought we would never achieve, then were completely caught on the back foot when they realised that we'd been doing this stuff all along, for free (we DID tell them, and they thought we were making it up, on the golf course etc). They did NOT believe us when we said that we subsidised out of hours care (I mean, what poltician would do such a thing? They have moats that need to be cleaned). So we got a better deal than they thought we deserved, have frozen our budgets since 2004 or 2003 and have been bad mouthing us ever since.

This from the people who wrecked the economy, take home enormous bonuses and now want to cut rersources to the NHS to pay...for subsidising the banks.

You couldn't make it up, could you?

And if you think you can do any better, then I suggest that you get some decent A levels, apply for medical school, work your arses off doing on call, pass your postgraduate exams and do the apprenticeship training and see if you can do any better.
Allan Harris
Posted: 08 September 2010 11:19:28(UTC)
#27

Joined: 30/07/2010(UTC)
Posts: 11

I plead guilty! I am a retired GP, 31 years in the same practice, now enjoying my RPI indexed pension. You could qualify for a full NHS pension after 40 years of service but there used to be an ability to make additional voluntary contributions to add years to your service. In my last years (part-time) I was making an additional 8K+ contribution to my pension pot so that when I retired I am indeed well provided for - but that was my choice.

Out of hours services used to be based on a 1930-40's model of care. I did over 20 years of on-call, which meant in the week working a full day, then an overnight until 8AM and then another full day until collapse at 7PM. In that time I would have made potentially life threatening decisions (the patient's - not mine) whilst exhausted. There is nothing more debilitating than getting out of bed 3 or 4 times to treat emergencies and then cracking on the next day. Weekends were no fun for the family, bound to the house as my wife acted as unpaid receptionist. At least we only did 24 hours on-call but I have worked all Sunday and not slept more than a few hours before Monday morning. It simply was not safe, even if it gave the illusion of continuity and care. The Co-operative movement which began a few years before I gave up out-of -hours was great. Defined shift, worked your socks off, but it was only 8 hours. Some nights continuous visits, but at least we had a call centre, drivers and good equipment. Didn't come cheap though, it cost me personally £3000 a year to be a member of the Co-op, as it did every other member. When the last Govt offered the chance to give all this up for £6K we bit their hands off. The civil servants who negotiated this with the BMA did not have a clue how expensive the service that we had been subsidising for years was - they soon found out.

Our new contract was largely imposed by a centralist government with political ideas who wanted more central control over issues such as 'quality'. Because quality is something ill-defined, especially in General Practice, they chose targets which where somewhat evidence based but largely things that could be counted easily, such as weight, BP etc. The quality framework has led to a lot more data and has improved the general health of the population. If a random middle aged man, who may only come in very infrequently, has his BP measured because the protocol says it should be done to meet your 'targets' the intervention is intrusive and not the reason he attended (which should take priority). However if it is raised, and a large number were, and we intervene by getting him to lose weight, take exercise, stop smoking and maybe after monitoring treat with medication then statistically we can show that he should live longer and healthier. No fun to have a stroke or heart attack in your 50's from preventable disease.

Our practice always met its targets. It was not easy but we had been doing most of it for years anyway. The money was not extra, it was part of the package of our general remuneration but throwing away that money would have been bad management. We invested heavily (hundreds of thousands) in computers, staff, training and professional management, because we wanted to do a good professional job and that requires resources and planning as well as team work, from every member of the practice team. Did it work? Our mortality figures for example heart attacks has fallen constantly over the 30 years, some of that is better drugs, some is better interventions and monitoring. The danger is that you chase targets and avoid the individual need and that has occurred.

The other gripe I have is that the patient has no idea how difficult General Practice is as a discipline. Sure there is lots of training and after 10 years you hope to become a GP. It is much more difficult now to become a partner (more responsibility but a share in the profits of the risks and opportunities of the business) so more young GPs are now employed as Assistants - less pay and less chance of progression. There is no average day but when I was working the bulk was routine (BP, asthma, general elderly medicine, depression, anxiety, cancer monitoring, diabetes etc. etc - you get the picture). However you had to be aware that every patient had potential not to be routine. The truly suicidal, the cancer symptoms picked up early enough, the incipient stroke. Occasionally you made decisions that were immediately life saving, which gives you a buzz, but you also had the satisfaction of stopping a 30 year old smoking, by constant nagging, and extending their potential lifespan into retirement. So a morning surgery, say 12-15 patients, maybe 30 problems to deal with. Some 45 minutes admin, results, letters etc. Visits - variable but usually necessary, maybe a lunchtime managerial meeting, more admin, signing up to 60 prescriptions (and reviewing the medication), evening surgery - similar to the morning. Input data on each consultation as it happens, whilst talking, trying to be empathic and not missing the dreaded target reminders, and all in 12.5 minutes (I started GP at 7.5 mins and it is now 12.5 because of the increasing burden of data logging and the complications of an ageing population). Do this every day and don't miss anything.

I'm quite glad I'm retired.
Kenpen2
Posted: 08 September 2010 12:52:09(UTC)
#28

Joined: 17/07/2008(UTC)
Posts: 32

Thanks: 1 times
Thanks Docs for some great contributions from the sharp end. I might have had the brains to be a medic, but not the bottle; all credit to you for taking it on. You deserve as a profession to be around the top of the earnings tree, which indeed you are (excluding top bankers, premiership footballers, ex-PMs and other parasites, but what can anyone do about THEM ???).

But are you OVERpaid ? Who can say ? Books could be written ... To this layman there seems to be a problem with an employment model which exposes you to such legal risks and pressures, and to such inherent unfairnesses among you ("The range of earnings is enormous. I don't know how it averages out, but GPs who are not partners in a practice will be earning well below £100K").

Is it to do with partnerships ? Leaving aside the vested interests which some of you may have, wouldn't it be altogether better if the medical and business aspects of your lives were more cleanly separated ? What if you were all employees of (and shareholders in) limited companies or co-operatives ? Would that allow the companies to take the risk and handle the flak rather than you as individuals, and to share out each year's profits as a diividend more equitably among Ricardo's "many dynamic young Doctors out there itching to have a go." ?

Anon 1 seem to see this as regrettable : "Med school numbers are now triple what they were so there will be many more GPs and lower salaries. At least current GPs get to manage their own practice- in the future i susupect there will private companies running surgeries and paying GPs fixed salaries." But trimming the incomes of the high-rolling senior partners and giving financial encouragement to an increased number of young bloods sounds good to me....


David Johnstone
Posted: 08 September 2010 13:18:13(UTC)
#29

Joined: 03/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 28

I look forward to the day when GP's can all speak English and open their surgeries to accommodate their patients working patterns as opposed to their own.
whitegates
Posted: 08 September 2010 16:15:34(UTC)
#30

Joined: 01/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 5

I should be grateful if one of the GPs who are posting can explain how the NHS pension scheme works in relation to so called "self employed " GPs. My understanding is that the "employer" ie the PCT or taxpayer pays an employer's contribution of around 14% to the NHS pension scheme. However I believe that HMRC rules prevent someone who is self employed belonging to an employers scheme. If they do then they cannot be self employed. Is then the reality that the "self employed" GPs are really employed and this self employed tag is just a fiction for some sort of tax /pension scam that is not open to the ordinary self employed taxpayer?
David Johnstone
Posted: 08 September 2010 16:59:42(UTC)
#31

Joined: 03/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 28

GP's who work within the NHS typically are members of the NHS final salary pension scheme which is heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. In addition if the GP has private practice earnings those can be also be pensioned. Hence the reason why so many GP's have been reluctant to leave the NHS and go totally private.
Tay Carlton
Posted: 08 September 2010 18:48:06(UTC)
#32

Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 2

David. Well if that's the quality
of your information this debate's going nowhere! GP's pensions are based on lifetime earnings not final salary. We are nominally self-employed but in fact have little choice but to ply our trade with the NHS. Most GPs will receive some non nhs income for things like insurance medicals, travel vaccinations not covered by the nhs scheme. A very few
may have private patients but there is hardly any scope for this in general practice. So a proprtion of our income is non-superannuable. We are allowed to take a private pension out on a proportion of this income. Because we are nominally self-employed we have to pay both the employers and employees national insurance contributions. With our new contract or as we call it the new con trick, the government changed the rules on how the inland revenue wanted our accounts presented. Under the old system the emplyer's portion of national insurance did not show as earnings. Under the new system we had to show it as earnings but obviously still had to pay it. The result was that immediately it looked as if we had a 14% greater pay rise than we actually received. Which takes your so called 100k down to about 86k. That's why we call it the new con trick and that's why we all get extremely pissed off when people like you get sniffy over paying us what we are well worth. By the way GP earnings when quoted include figures tobrake into account expected non nhs remuneration as well. Like I said, we spend our lives trying to improve the lot of humanity and NOT wrecking the economy. Meanwhile we pour billions into banks for people who quite frankly would sell their own grandmothers for a profit. Hey, with my academic credentials I could have done physics and become a quant, earned 300k a year modelling the economy, get it wrong, wreck capitalism and still be able to get my salary plus benefits and sue my doctor! But then, I recall deciding that I wasn't in it for the money at the age of 16 when I decided that I wanted to be a doctor. But hang on a moment, practically all my mates who went into the city did it to make loadsamoney and thought that I was crazy to work the hours that I did while they had long lunches and late nights at Stringfellows. They have mostly done very well for themselves and managed to achieve what my socialist parents only dreamed of. Yes, you guessed it, they wrecked capitalism! Am I right or did I miss something?
John Wardle
Posted: 09 September 2010 15:00:50(UTC)
#33

Joined: 03/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3

Outragious!!

How did we get into this situation? It just shows how lax politicians and civil servants are with public funds.
David Johnstone
Posted: 09 September 2010 15:14:59(UTC)
#34

Joined: 03/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 28

To Mr Carlton, GP.......I hope you read patient records more closley than my point. I said 'typically are mebers of the NHS final salary scheme'. Yes there have been rule changes over recent years but many retired, at or near retired GP's built up very attractive final salary related pension benefits.

They were also able to pension a second source of income unlike many other occupations at the time, dentists too.

As for the rest of your rant, totally pointless and disproportionate to the point I made.

Hope you don't prescribe with such spite.

The calculation of pension benefits for those who are interested in the truth can be found at;

www.nhsbsa.nhs.uk/Pensio...ensions/SD_Guide_online_(V4)_12.2009.pdf




Dr Grumpy
Posted: 09 September 2010 18:51:01(UTC)
#35

Joined: 07/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 4

David- Us GPs are honestly used to and quite patient with those who continue to come in spouting their knowledge of how things work and seem unable to consider another point of view. It does make for a challenging 10 minute consultation though, as I promise that if you think black is white whereas I know black is black and can prove it is black but you still don't believe me we end up with dissatisfied punters who want a 2nd opinion (which they know it's their right to have...) It is honestly OK to have this sort of consultation though, as usually we can make progress and the contents of the consultation and any disturbingly distorted inaccurate and delusional beliefs can be kept totally confidential and not publicised widely (as at present) on an internet discussion forum...

In one of my posts above i stated 'GP pensions never have been final salaty versions' (I apologise for the typo) and Mr Carlton, GP (that would be Dr Carlton then, perhaps?) wrote 'GP's pensions are based on lifetime earnings not final salary'. I understand you have your own views which are of course welcome but I am surprised to see you emphatically know better than two of us who are directly involved in the scheme?

To quote you "I said 'typically are members of the NHS final salary scheme'. Yes there have been rule changes over recent years but many retired, at or near retired GP's built up very attractive final salary related pension benefits" suggests you still cling to the belief that GPs have some NHS final salary scheme or have done in the past- this is simply not true. GP pensions are based upon career average earnings, dynamised, or uprated by yearly factors (previously related to average earnings, now related to inflation). You have very kindly posted a link to the current NHS pensions document which clearly states this- I am sure you have read it carefully and know that GPs are 'Practitioners'- page 5 clarifies this nicely.

I wonder if you would like to reconsider any of your last post and the assumptions you have jumped to about Dr Carlton?
David Johnstone
Posted: 13 September 2010 11:13:25(UTC)
#36

Joined: 03/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 28

To Dr Grumpy. In the world of UK pensions there are essentially 2 types of pension plan, defined benefit (DB -occupational / final salary) and defined contribution (DC - personal pension) schemes. The NHS scheme is a DB public sector pension scheme. It is the largest unfunded occupational pension scheme in Europe.

For GP's / dentists their benefits are now linked to 'career average earnings'. Whether the basis of calculation of the eventual benefits is calculated on the best 3 years earnings in the last 10 years, or final salary year dynamised or lifetime earnings is totally missing the point. The scheme you are a member of is a DB scheme referred to in the pensions world as 'final salary'. The eventual benfits are salary linked.

Despite what you wish to believe there is no '3rd way' special scheme set up just for practitioners. The NHS scheme has always been and continues to be a 'final salary' pension scheme. There is no pot of money with your own name on it rather there is a liability on the government underwritten by the Exchequor to make the pension payments scheme membership rules dictate based on a multitude of factors including 'length of service, scheme membership and earnings'. This liability is unltimately funded by the British taxpayer.

In simple terms I and any other self employed individual in the UK who works hard to build up their own pension on a personal basis is also contributing indirectly to your DB pension scheme yet you and every other GP in the UK are making no contribution to my or any other worker in the UK who has to create their own pension fund based on personal contributions.

This is the key difference between your gilt-edged government underwritten DB final salary and DC personal arrangements.
David Johnstone
Posted: 13 September 2010 11:24:54(UTC)
#37

Joined: 03/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 28

To Dr Grumpy, I have just re-read your post of 7th Sept. Perhaps you need reminding of how privileged you are to be able to say you are a member of this particular pension scheme and the fact the British public is paying a large contribution towards your retirement at a time when economically they cannot afford to make provision for their own retirement. The NHS scheme is a burden on this country's finances and quite frankly any GP who moans they are hard done to needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Relative to the majority of other UK employees your pension provision is excessive therefore you should think yourself lucky and privileged to be in this poistion and you would do well to remember that.

This is not a personal dig at GP's of any description merely a statement of the glaringly obvious and why sympathy for GP's is being tested.
John Wardle
Posted: 13 September 2010 11:28:34(UTC)
#38

Joined: 03/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3

Nice one David!

They key issue, as you state, is that Doctors are Self Employed and proud of it, yet they benefit from a top hat goivernment funded pension scheme. What is the logic of that?
whitegates
Posted: 13 September 2010 16:57:40(UTC)
#39

Joined: 01/02/2010(UTC)
Posts: 5

I don't really understand how many (perhaps most GPs) can be self employed. This is really a fiction surely as they receive a salary and reimbursement of expenses (plus the benefits of the DB NHS pension scheme) from an employer- the PCT i.e the taxpayer. What business risk do GPs run. They still get paid even if they are incompetent, as per the recent antics of the GMC eg Patel and Chapman. In any other reputable profession, these individuals would have been struck off.
Grumpy Old Man
Posted: 13 September 2010 18:14:37(UTC)
#40

Joined: 09/05/2010(UTC)
Posts: 16

IMHO,G.P's who are partners are very well remunerated and many seem to work no more than 4 days a week.
Granted, the form filling must be a pain in the backside but all jobs have their drawbacks.
I believe that most people would be less grudging of G.P.'s apparent pay if they felt that they were getting a consistent service.In many practices it is very difficult to see the doctor of your choice....no longer does one have a Doctor,one has a Practice.The passing of the old style 'family doctor' is a sad loss ,I reckon.
Could go on but most points have already been made.....reckon a number of blood pressures have gone up too!!!
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