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Fund Valuation Times
Tom Bards
Posted: 09 April 2018 17:30:58(UTC)
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Have perhaps a pretty simple question however I can't find any clear cut answers anywhere.

Basically, after looking at the stock prices for today and holdings held inside LT Global, it seemed pretty certain that the fund would move upwards today. However, it has done the opposite. How can this be?

I have a HL wish list set up with all the individual shares that LT Global holds so I can quickly glance at the days prices and make a judgement on whether the fund will move up or down. With the majority of the shares it owns moving up today I assumed it would move up so it got me wondering about the valuation times and whether there is any time lag on the valuations, given the different closing times of exchanges.


Obviously it is not that important after all a day is just a day, I just wondered if anyone could give me some insight.
Aminatidi
Posted: 09 April 2018 17:35:33(UTC)
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I believe it's midday.

I'd also be interested to know how this works as presumably Japan are ahead at midday, US won't have opened etc.
Apostate
Posted: 09 April 2018 17:59:47(UTC)
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Wall Street dived on Friday so presumably Japan, UK and Europe didn't rise enough to prevent an overall loss since Friday's valuation. I think that's right...
King Lodos
Posted: 09 April 2018 18:01:46(UTC)
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Yep, think of most fund valuations as a day behind .. Today's actually been a good one for LT's top holdings
Tom Bards
Posted: 09 April 2018 18:09:38(UTC)
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Ok, makes sense. Should be an increase tomorrow then.
Aminatidi
Posted: 10 April 2018 16:09:10(UTC)
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Tom Bards;60401 wrote:
Ok, makes sense. Should be an increase tomorrow then.


It's gone down.
Tom Bards
Posted: 10 April 2018 16:30:48(UTC)
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Aminatidi;60438 wrote:
Tom Bards;60401 wrote:
Ok, makes sense. Should be an increase tomorrow then.


It's gone down.




Surprising seeing as basically all their holdings except Unilever went up yesterday.
geoffrey Walton
Posted: 10 April 2018 17:02:23(UTC)
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It surprised me as well, as Fundsmith Smith and Woodford both went up?

Perhaps it is Unilever?

Still, they might double tomorrow!!!
Apostate
Posted: 10 April 2018 17:38:04(UTC)
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Strengthening pound especially against the yen?
Money Spider
Posted: 10 April 2018 17:53:38(UTC)
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Not all funds have their new valuation at midday. I doesn't even seem to depend upon where they are domiciled.

You mention that you are a client of HL (Hargreaves Lansdown). If you click on the first tab of each fund's info pages and scroll down to 'other information' you will see a time given for the 'Valuation Point'. It is also given on the 'Key Features' tab.
A few random examples:

Marlborough Multi-Cap (GB): 12:00
Royal London Extra Yield Sterling (IE): 17:00
Vanguard Emerging Markets (IE): 21:00

HTH
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Tom Bards
Posted: 11 April 2018 16:35:06(UTC)
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geoffrey Walton;60441 wrote:
It surprised me as well, as Fundsmith Smith and Woodford both went up?

Perhaps it is Unilever?

Still, they might double tomorrow!!!




And down again today, not quite sure how but there we go
Apostate
Posted: 11 April 2018 18:38:21(UTC)
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Tom Bards;60482 wrote:
geoffrey Walton;60441 wrote:
It surprised me as well, as Fundsmith Smith and Woodford both went up?

Perhaps it is Unilever?

Still, they might double tomorrow!!!




And down again today, not quite sure how but there we go


losses on large Japanese holdings
Theo Shackleton
Posted: 11 May 2018 10:29:14(UTC)
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For many funds the valuation point is noon, so you need to make your order (to buy or sell) by 11am. This is the case with my platform anyway. Some funds are different though. Like vanguard lifestrategy funds are valued at 10am, so the order has to be made by 9.
Apostate
Posted: 11 May 2018 10:54:32(UTC)
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Theo Shackleton;62114 wrote:
For many funds the valuation point is noon, so you need to make your order (to buy or sell) by 11am. This is the case with my platform anyway. Some funds are different though. Like vanguard lifestrategy funds are valued at 10am, so the order has to be made by 9.


UK Lifestrategy valuation point is 2100 (UK time) - like most of Vanguard's funds.
Theo Shackleton
Posted: 11 May 2018 11:19:16(UTC)
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Apostate;62115 wrote:
Theo Shackleton;62114 wrote:
For many funds the valuation point is noon, so you need to make your order (to buy or sell) by 11am. This is the case with my platform anyway. Some funds are different though. Like vanguard lifestrategy funds are valued at 10am, so the order has to be made by 9.


UK Lifestrategy valuation point is 2100 (UK time) - like most of Vanguard's funds.


Well the dealing deadline is 9am for the Lifestrategy funds. In which case, it seems odd to me that you need to get your order in by that time for a valuation that occurs 12 hours later.

With other funds, you get your order in an hour before noon to get that day's valuation. Fundsmith I think you can deal any time up until noon for that day's valuation.

Could you provide a link to the Vanguard valuation times?
Apostate
Posted: 11 May 2018 11:39:04(UTC)
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Theo Shackleton;62116 wrote:
Apostate;62115 wrote:
Theo Shackleton;62114 wrote:
For many funds the valuation point is noon, so you need to make your order (to buy or sell) by 11am. This is the case with my platform anyway. Some funds are different though. Like vanguard lifestrategy funds are valued at 10am, so the order has to be made by 9.


UK Lifestrategy valuation point is 2100 (UK time) - like most of Vanguard's funds.


Well the dealing deadline is 9am for the Lifestrategy funds. In which case, it seems odd to me that you need to get your order in by that time for a valuation that occurs 12 hours later.

With other funds, you get your order in an hour before noon to get that day's valuation. Fundsmith I think you can deal any time up until noon for that day's valuation.

Could you provide a link to the Vanguard valuation times?


https://www.vanguard.co....strategy-prospectus.pdf

One of the things with Vanguard is after you've placed your order there is a whole day's trading in Europe and Wall Street until the valuation point is set. At least with funds with a 12 noon valuation you know what the value of the US holdings will be. But then Vanguard funds are surely to buy and hold not to look to time the market with them.
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Theo Shackleton on 11/05/2018(UTC)
Theo Shackleton
Posted: 11 May 2018 11:52:02(UTC)
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Apostate;62119 wrote:
Theo Shackleton;62116 wrote:
Apostate;62115 wrote:
Theo Shackleton;62114 wrote:
For many funds the valuation point is noon, so you need to make your order (to buy or sell) by 11am. This is the case with my platform anyway. Some funds are different though. Like vanguard lifestrategy funds are valued at 10am, so the order has to be made by 9.


UK Lifestrategy valuation point is 2100 (UK time) - like most of Vanguard's funds.


Well the dealing deadline is 9am for the Lifestrategy funds. In which case, it seems odd to me that you need to get your order in by that time for a valuation that occurs 12 hours later.

With other funds, you get your order in an hour before noon to get that day's valuation. Fundsmith I think you can deal any time up until noon for that day's valuation.

Could you provide a link to the Vanguard valuation times?


https://www.vanguard.co....strategy-prospectus.pdf

One of the things with Vanguard is after you've placed your order there is a whole day's trading in Europe and Wall Street until the valuation point is set. At least with funds with a 12 noon valuation you know what the value of the US holdings will be. But then Vanguard funds are surely to buy and hold not to look to time the market with them.


Agreed.

Just looked this up. So Deal deadline is 9am GMT so the order can be received at Vanguard by 10am. Vanguard then wait until the close of business in New York to make their valuation for the day, which is 2100 UK time.

So Vanguard, with many of their funds, are more risky than other funds in terms of buying and selling delays. Weekends could be especially dodgy if you miss the Friday deal point and then some world catastrophe occurs over the weekend.

Agree that their lifestrategy funds are not for flipping, but still, it is preferable to have an hour's delay as per many funds rather than a whole day nevertheless. Worst case scenario is you miss the Friday deadline and then have to wait until the following Monday, even Tuesday if a holiday, at 2100!
Aminatidi
Posted: 13 May 2018 07:25:18(UTC)
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Noticed II seems to value portfolios over the weekend.

Unless I'm going nuts my funds in II show a different value this morning than they did yesterday when I was looking into something.
Big boy
Posted: 13 May 2018 09:05:46(UTC)
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You are right most investor don't know how or when pricing takes place. Unit trust Managers used to have the option of pricing on a "bid" or "offer" basis each day. If you had large redemptions which had to be financed by selling underlying stocks you would move to a "bid" basis.(could be a few %) The action of large liquidation could also push your underlying prices down which also had an adverse reaction on the unit trust price the next day. Also if a Manager is out of favour Mr & Mrs Cherrypicker will be driving down the price as well. This was know as managing the "box" position and Managers could make money out of this operation.

It could be that the prices were fixed at 12.00 but the Manager would have until say 14.00 to decide on a bid/offer basis for pricing.
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Tim D on 13/05/2018(UTC), IanL on 13/05/2018(UTC), Monty Claret on 15/05/2018(UTC)
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