Share this page:
Stay connected:
Welcome to the Citywire Money Forums, where members share investment ideas and discuss everything to do with their money.

You'll need to log in or set up an account to start new discussions or reply to existing ones. See you inside!

Notification

Icon
Error

Eating the crumbs from the rich man's table
Tony Peterson
Posted: 28 August 2016 15:28:19(UTC)
#22

Joined: 10/08/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,251

Thanks: 775 times
Was thanked: 1577 time(s) in 648 post(s)
John R

Thanks for resurrecting this almost religious thread after so long.

I remember having some interesting discussions with the OP, Jeremy Bosk, an amiable chap in my age range, and would like to think he is still alive and kicking. Are you receiving us, Jeremy?

What is rather topical today, and it's a thought that has often crossed my mind, is that so much of the wealth of the UK is a result of the nation's intellectual capital arising from the work of past geniuses. Newton, Arkwright, Watt. Faraday. Brunel, Rutherford Turing and many more besides..

Much of the toil that once necessarily was the common lot of humanity has now been handed over to machines. I do not need to employ washerwomen, cooks, musicians, jesters, ostlers, postillions, servants, to enjoy a life more comfortable and entertaining than any of the kings of the earth enjoyed 300 years ago. The benefits of technology are not being distributed fairly, although I note that Finland is starting to experiment with a citizen's basic universal subsistence allowance.

Perhaps that could be worthy of some further discussion?





andy
Posted: 29 August 2016 16:59:56(UTC)
#23

Joined: 11/03/2010(UTC)
Posts: 171

Thanks: 107 times
Was thanked: 190 time(s) in 88 post(s)
Tony

Switzerland had a referendum on this (was defeated).

The following includes your Finnish example - as well as the Dutch model (which starts in 2017).

https://www.theguardian....universal-basic-incomes

Andrew
1 user thanked andy for this post.
Tony Peterson on 29/08/2016(UTC)
King Lodos
Posted: 30 August 2016 00:04:52(UTC)
#24

Joined: 05/01/2016(UTC)
Posts: 3,025

Thanks: 714 times
Was thanked: 4728 time(s) in 1827 post(s)
Seattle's currently trialing a higher minimum wage – currently $13/hour, rising next year to $15

But, along with every corporation I know which has tried similar schemes, the net effect so far has done anything but level the playing field

Markets tend to be very good at setting their own prices ... and when we try and manipulate them, they try to rebalance ... In the case of Seattle, as minimum wages rose, so did unemployment

With a century and a half of failed socialist experiments, I suspect the effect of a universal income would be a simple devaluing of wealth through inflation ... The simplest rule of markets: when you start giving something away, it becomes worth less

I think it was Thomas Sowell who said something along the lines of: Every attempt to redistribute wealth has only led to a broader distribution of poverty
JohnW
Posted: 30 August 2016 10:05:34(UTC)
#25

Joined: 14/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 206

Thanks: 162 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 96 post(s)
Quote:
In the case of Seattle, as minimum wages rose, so did unemployment


Exactly the same thing happened with house prices when the wife's wages were allowed in mortgage calculations. Prices rise to a level that people are able to pay.

John
1 user thanked JohnW for this post.
Micawber on 30/08/2016(UTC)
Micawber
Posted: 30 August 2016 10:49:17(UTC)
#26

Joined: 27/01/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,797

Thanks: 798 times
Was thanked: 2689 time(s) in 1018 post(s)
JohnW;36866 wrote:
Quote:
In the case of Seattle, as minimum wages rose, so did unemployment


Exactly the same thing happened with house prices when the wife's wages were allowed in mortgage calculations. Prices rise to a level that people are able to pay.

John


Exactly. The main determinant in UK house prices is not supply and demand (the demand is always there) but simply the amount that can be borrowed/lenders are willing to lend. The change to allow all a spouse's salary instead of, what was it, 25%?, has led to a one-time additional surge in house prices as more spouses (wives) went out to work, until now over 70% of owned households have both partners working. And so, the majority are living in the same housing stock as before, but paying twice as much to do so....

Residential property, and the UK's mania with it, is the main distortion of our sclerotic economy. The ONS figures for 18 Aug 2016 give the "net worth" of dwellings etc. at 5.5trillion of the entire UK net worth of 8.8 trillion - that is 62.5% on my calculator.

If only half that was devoted to R&D, manufacturing capability, infrastructure, education....


Edit: from the ONS summary: "By asset type, dwellings again were the most valuable type of non-financial asset. Adding in those belonging to other sectors, their total value came to £5.5 trillion at end-2015, up 7% on the previous year. This was over four times their value in 1995, when they came to £1.2 trillion; the increase was mainly due to increases in house prices rather than a change in the number of dwellings."
2 PagesPrevious page12
+ Reply to discussion

Markets

Other markets